Podcast Alley Vote Scam - Where do you stand?

[agile]

I know the voting thing has been done to death however I wanted to gauge people's opinions on where you stand in regard to exchanging votes.

http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10541&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The above link is a thread where a number of podcasters agree to vote for each other as well as get friends to vote for each other shows in exchange for return votes.

I regard this as a scam. It may not be outright cheating (but then again it might be) but it is certainly not within the spirit of the voting thing. Your podcast will not take off until you look beyond the podcasting community and try to genuinely engage listeners. And for those who say they are not concerned about being popular I ask you why you bother trying to get votes in the first place.


I am very interested to hear other peoples opinions on this 'process'. To find out how it works click on the above link. As a listener I want to listen to the best podcasts; not the podcasts with the most cunning ways of soliciting votes.

[Lizard King]

You nailed it on the head when you spoke of the spirit of voting.

[ElNacho]

a listener comes to PCA and goes to his favorite category. the top 10 there he will probably subscribe to. vote-trading boosts otherwise lower-ranked shows above the fair-playing ones and gives both the fair-playing podcast and the listener a worse experience then if there was no vote-trading going on

[tokies]

to the spirt of the voting.. spirt is held in each person heart different when you try and impose your view on others it rarely works so im glad your leaving it open ended for those to make there own choices..

differences are great and wonder things. people listening to and giving you comments on your podcast is neat to..

podcast makers.. are also most likely listeners.. currently im subcribe.. to......

FTL
redbarradio
punky!
dawn and drew
switched on
buzz out loud
mac OS Ken
NLO
nobodies
maccast
washington travelcast
how to girl

i vote for them all.. and a few others as well as i listen to.. listeners most of us were first.. podcasters second..


everything isnt always as black and white as we want to make the world.. somethings are good.. sometimes are bad.. and something as all grown ups figure out when where older is.. gray.. i see this as more gray it isnt honest but its not cheating..straight out.. (i think of everyone here as adult.. ) thought i would add that.. and some more adult then me..

plus even if we werent doing the vote trade.. id prolly vote for most of these cast now that i have been introduce to them.. which i would have otherwise never have been..

ps. just to.. wondering.. why did you label it vote scam.. why didnt you label it vote trade.. do you think its a scam or something more open ended? just wondering..

[WyethDigital]

Tim,

Thank you for moving your topic and your complaints to a seperate thread where it belongs. Instead of retyping my old arguments ad nauseum, I will merely quote my main point from the prior thread and maybe add a couple of other thoughts:

Voting is a marketing tool which some people decide to use, and some people don't. If they don't use it, then they deserve the spot they get. If on the other hand, someone has a large audience that is loyal at voting, and they turn out the numbers, then I've only slowed them down, if I've affected them at all.

Honestly now! Would someone please explain the difference between inserting and ad for PCA into your podcast and on your site, and discussing it here in the forums? If you think it's somehow unethical (?!?) to pool resources, share shows and offer appreciation to fellow podcasters... then yeah. I've cheated. And it feels pretty good, too! Partly because I rank higher than i would alone, but mostly because I've gotten to try shows that weren't on my radar screen before. Isn't that what the voting is supposed to get listeners to do?
In all essence, there is no difference IMHO. Whether you beg and plead for votes on your show, or put a prescripted voting box on your site, there's no difference. It was mentioned by Tim in the other thread that fans have to work to vote, and our share-the-wealth campaign somehow cancels that out. That could not be less true. Whether you vote from a website or from here; whether you linked in from Google, a podcaster's website, or from a forum post, it is still all the same steps.

It's funny that the assumption is that because we take the time to vote for each other, we are somehow not reaching out to our audiences. Again, not true. This is free advertising. We make use of it. But we also make use of other tools. Are the other methods closing us off from our listeners? No.

How about Promos? It's time spent talking about someone else's show when your audience tuned into yours. Don't you think if they wanted to listen to that other show they could have hunted it down all by themselves? Is that a silly argument? Of course it is! Just like this whole voting argument is silly. Promos are insanely useful, and much appreciated!

We cross promote because many united are stronger than one apart. That is the purpose of the other thread. All the people that have come to and viewed that post, as well as those who have participated in the discussion will have been exposed to new shows. And if someone didn't see the thread, but maybe because a podcast got bumped higher because of it, then they have been exsposed to a new show as well. It may shake up the old guard, but change is usually good.


Eric

[agile]

Actually this is what I said in response to your original comment Eric:


The people who vote via a podcast website/podcast are doing so because they care enough about the show in question to vote. They most likely went to the website after listening to the show and are showing their appreciation of the podcast by voting.

People voting through this vote scam are doing so not because they necessarily like the podcast they are voting for but are doing it for a return vote.

I would think that people in this thread don't even listen to all of the shows they vote for in return for a vote from that podcast.

Therin lies the difference Eric.

Regards,

[ElNacho]

wyeth, ahm gonna do a bit of research, then proxy myself into the top 10. because thas perfectly fair as far as yer 'rules' are concerned.

[Pokasta]

Have to say, its a confrontation between the ideal and the realistic. IMO, its not unethical/wrong when all individuals are at the same advantage/disadvantage.

Ideally people shouldnt 'fix'/exchange votes...but if everyone doesnt, the one (opportunistic) person (i.e. pretty much everyone) who does, will reign supreme...so it'll never happen because nobody wants to set themselves up to lose out.

So in a way...by everyone exchanging/asking for votes...its the masses making sure the unethical minority dont have their way, so I have no qualms.

[Pokasta]

Its a somewhat crass comparison- but if the world was full of pacifists, I'd be the first person to sharpen a stick, and in the words of someone a little brighter than myself, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

[WyethDigital]

wyeth, ahm gonna do a bit of research, then proxy myself into the top 10. because thas perfectly fair as far as yer 'rules' are concerned.
Except that PCA does take steps to make PCA to make proxy voting more difficult and a message even pops up to tell you that you are only allowed one vote per month (if you try to vote a second time); so there is an established and documented rule. :roll:

When you try to exaggerate my opinion or put words in my mouth, then it only weakens your own argument, my friend.

Eric

[etomorrow]

who gives a ****?

[agile]

who gives a ****?

You do enough to post in this thread. :wink:

[ElNacho]

what? agile, he wasnt defending anything or anything.

[WyethDigital]

who gives a ****?
I'd say that sums it up nicely.

I'll concede that the whole affair is somewhat tacky, but it isn't against the rules (since there's really only one)... and in the grand scheme of things, it's just not important enough to matter.

Eric

[WyethDigital]

But that's how Mike D. works. You know witty, intelligent banter.
That's true, Jason! Can't expect a leopard to change it's spots...

Too bad. Polka dots are the new pink this year!

Eric

[etomorrow]

who gives a f*ck?

You do enough to post in this thread. :wink:

that is my favorite forum dork logic. seems that every forum dork uses that defense at some point.

i cared enough to give it 22 keystrokes. which, including the click was probably about 12 seconds.


if you are so obsessed with the voting, why don't you review the entire top 10. or the shows in the vote trading thread.

[ElNacho]

sure, eric. we all can tell you dont care especially after making two whole posts in this thread. that really shows us you dont care, we can tell.

:shock:

[Barefoot Radio.com]

Agile, can you use your critical mind and tell me the definition of 'scam?'

This is Podcast Alley, not a used car dealership. Calling the voting method people are trying to employ to gain a little exposure a 'scam' is far too harsh. In fact, it's a form of bartering. Moreover, I'll vote for anyone on this site to make a mochery of it. It doesn't matter nearly as deeply as you think.

A scam would be selling someone a car you KNEW was a lemon. Or a 'scam' is selling a swamp to old people for their retirement home. How is trading voting a 'scam?' I agree that the vote we have per month can be used as a marketing tool. Be clever and use it any way you want.

Another way of looking at it is that 'a rising tide helps raise all ships.' (this was the way another podcaster put it who appreciates the method).

You are calling people 'scammers' and that's just silly. They're just trying to get noticed. And if they ARE scamming as you call it, then it doesn't do much ANYWAY to change the system. It's a tiny percentage that changes, but you make the act seem seedy when it's really ambitious.

[Lizard King]

Personally, I feel that the vote 'bartering' and proxy-voting, though they are not a huge issue, defeat the purpose and spirit of voting at the least.
Proxy Voting is simply a load of crap, as childish as any snot nosed brat crying because he didn't win. I DO have a problem with proxy voting because it is simply wrong in its very nature.
Vote trading isn't wrong in the way that Proxy Voting is wrong, but it also defeats the purpose of voting and ranking shows. It acts like a vote "inflation". What I mean is, sure everyone got more votes, but what did it get you but an over-inflated vote pool?
Everyone knows what the voting is for. It is intended to be a way for listeners, podcasters or non, to vote for the shows they listen to and like. If everyone kept it simple, it would be just that, a simple tool.

[Barefoot Radio.com]

On the positive side it has been a way for me the last couple months to see how many people I have listening who I can mobilize to vote for me. In the big picture I think it shows that we have a long way to go.

I could have been doing better but I didn't have any system in place before.

If you're not in the top 10 I think you don't have much to gain. There are successful radio people in PCA's directory and you don't NEED PCA for success. Would it help everyone to be in the top 10? Of course.

You might argue that some more successful shows have boosted their listener base by going after it in aggresive ways(cheating voting systems). Do the ends justify the means if they maintained their audience? What's a noble success anyways? There are always the naysayers saying that there's something 'wrong' with another person's approach to success. If you don't do everything in your power to succeed, perhaps that's unethical. Maybe people cheating the voting system deserve the ranking because they are willing to cast 'good taste' to the wind and do what's best for them. I'm just asking questions here and not really trying to offend anyone. I'm just being the devil's advocate. Vote cheating is not the same as stealing. It's not the same as war between countries. It's not the same as an intentional fire that kills a child, nor a person blowing cigarette smoke in your face. The cheating vote in this case is the ego gone mad. I feel like it's ALMOST me, but not quite.

If you really want success it doesn't come over night and you have to go to 'extreme' lengths to get there. Maybe the cheaters have balls because they're essentially stepping to the front of the line. I don't have the personality to do that, but sometimes life presents us with challenging moral questions. I'd cheat on PCA if I thought that it would make me a millionaire. But that thought is ridiculous. I don't think that cheating to get to the top of the list at PCA is worth the respect one loses for doing so, but if you have a really good show that can maintain an audience, it might give you the boost you need to maintain it more legitimately.

If one of my listeners, or some of them decided they were going to do this for me on my behalf, I would not condone it, but at the same time, wouldn't it be interesting to have a little army of people you've trained to do this? I'm SURE there are podcasts with LOTS of listeners who've gotten a big jump start this way.

IS IT JUSTIFIABLE??????

HAS THE IDEAL TIME FOR IT PASSED ON PCA?

WHERE'S THE MAKEOVER????????

WHERE'S THE PERSONAL TOUCH????????????

WHERE'S MY PIPE??????

I can't wait to hear all the crying.

I said, 'tequilla made me do it, your honor!'

[jholm]

IMHO the voting setup by its nature does not ensure that the best podcasts rise to the top. That is just the way it is. Given that, I'm not sure there is anything wrong with vote swapping.

I did it one month, and actually listened to the folks that I voted for - so they got some exposure. However, I'm not sure I'll continue to do so.

Julie