Mixer

[powwows]

Currently I'm using just one mic. All of the interviews, so far, are over Skype. But I'm going to be doing some face to face interviews soon.

So I'd like to get a good mixer so I can have 2 mics running.

What mixer(s) is recommended to run in front of a laptop?

Thanks

[ElNacho]

any mixer will do, for whatever interface. if you have a usb port but no line in, get a firewire mixer. if you have a line in, i recommend getting a mixer that has a line-out. try the ub802 eurorack behringer thingie. i have it, works good. nice 'n simple.

[X Pat Radio]

Currently I'm using just one mic. All of the interviews, so far, are over Skype. But I'm going to be doing some face to face interviews soon.

So I'd like to get a good mixer so I can have 2 mics running.

What mixer(s) is recommended to run in front of a laptop?

Thanks

How much money do you want to spend? Are you on the road doing this or at home?

Take a look at the Giant Squid Mic's. You could try getting a stereo mic and having one channel on each person.

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-micline1.html

[sbourne]

Currently I'm using just one mic. All of the interviews, so far, are over Skype. But I'm going to be doing some face to face interviews soon.

So I'd like to get a good mixer so I can have 2 mics running.

What mixer(s) is recommended to run in front of a laptop?

Thanks

I use the Alesis MultiMix 8 USB. It has reasonably quiet microphone preamps, basic three channel EQ and works like a charm. It's also very affordable. I paid about $150 at Guitar Center.

[powwows]

I'd like to be in the under $200 range. And this is for when I'm on the road.

Thanks!

[powwows]

I'm planning on recording into Audition. Will it come into that in different tracks? Or different channels?

Thanks

[SFEley]

any mixer will do, for whatever interface. if you have a usb port but no line in, get a firewire mixer.
No. If you only have a USB port, you would get a USB mixer. If you have a Firewire port, you could get a Firewire mixer.

USB and Firewire are different from each other, El Nacho. "Different" means "not the same."

[SFEley]

On the original question: there are a lot of great mixers that will let you work with two microphones, starting at $50 on up. For budget, sound quality, and ease of input, I would second the recommendation for the Alesis Multimix 8 USB mixer. You can get better sound and better digital interfaces, but it's hard to get both for such a low price. And you'll have plenty of room to grow with it if you decide to add a few more mics later on.

I'm planning on recording into Audition. Will it come into that in different tracks? Or different channels?
Unfortunately, the USB interface on the Alesis will output the final stereo mix (i.e. two channels) only. I don't know of a true multichannel interface under $500. If you're only using two mics, you can get the effect of separate channels by panning them hard left and hard right, then split those into two separate tracks in Audition. Whether it's worth it is up to you.

[ElNacho]

USB and Firewire are different from each other, El Nacho. "Different" means "not the same."
they are? :shock:

i thought the firewire mixers had a firewire plug on the mixer end, and a usb on the other. *shrug*
and there's no need to be condescending, senor.

[X Pat Radio]

USB and Firewire are different from each other, El Nacho. "Different" means "not the same."
they are? :shock:

i thought the firewire mixers had a firewire plug on the mixer end, and a usb on the other. *shrug*
and there's no need to be condescending, senor.

Firewire is better if you can use it.

[roadrageradio]

Firewire is better if you can use it.

Really? better how? better at what?

If you mean firewire is a faster interface than USB, no argument.

But, unless you're recording multiple tracks, even USB 1.1 is fast enough to get digital stereo audio into the computer.

[sbourne]

There is one downside to firewire: There's more likely to be device interrupt conflicts using firewire interfaces. I'm working on a book about podcasting and I tested 10 interfaces on five computers, three Mac and two PCs. None of the USB interfaces had device conflicts on any of the computers. Three of the firewire devices had conflicts on more than one of the computers and one of the firewire devices wouldn't work on one of the Macs.

While some amount of tinkering could probably sort out the conflict, for those who are timid about technology and who want things that just work, USB is a safer choice.

By the way, most of the USB mixers I looked at use USB 2.0 and it's plenty fast for any recording application when paired with a computer that has decent horsepower.

All that said, there will be some higher-end applications that require firewire but in a situation where the work is exclusively distributed as a podcast, I can't think of many that will apply.

[roadrageradio]

There is one downside to firewire: There's more likely to be device interrupt conflicts using firewire interfaces. I'm working on a book about podcasting and I tested 10 interfaces on five computers, three Mac and two PCs. None of the USB interfaces had device conflicts on any of the computers. Three of the firewire devices had conflicts on more than one of the computers and one of the firewire devices wouldn't work on one of the Macs.

While some amount of tinkering could probably sort out the conflict, for those who are timid about technology and who want things that just work, USB is a safer choice.

... more good stuff ...



After "copy and paste" my two favorite words are "plug and play"

[siriusfox]

If you mean firewire is a faster interface than USB, no argument.Actually, FW 400 is Slower than USB 2.0. (400Mb/s vs. 480Mb/s). Only FW 800 is faster. It's not like it makes much difference though.

[SFEley]

Firewire is better if you can use it.

Really? better how? better at what?

There are certain efficiencies in the way Firewire is implemented that make it better for streaming data than USB. The major advantages are:

1.) If you have a lot of devices on the chain, the bandwidth for USB is split among all those devices. So your mouse, keyboard, and especially your USB hard drive can all leech speed sporadically from your audio device, and that may lead to interrupts and audio glitches. Firewire devices get reliable bandwidth regardless of how many devices are on the chain.

2.) The USB protocol is generally handled by the CPU, while Firewire has its own chipset on every device. This means your computer has to devote more processing to the USB stream, leading to higher latency (enough to be annoying if you're monitoring live) and possible glitches if it's also busy managing real-time effects, switching between programs, or swapping memory. Firewire takes much less CPU overhead, so you're almost guaranteed not to lose any data from your stream. (As an aside, this is also why Firewire devices are more expensive -- and why the iPod Nano only does USB. There was no room for the Firewire chip.)

3.) Because of #2, USB devices are always host-based -- there has to be a CPU in the middle, telling them what to do -- whereas Firewire devices can communicate peer-to-peer. So theoretically, you can have two Firewire audio interfaces talking to each other without having to pass their data through your computer, or even a Firewire mixer saving data directly to a Firewire hard drive. I have no idea whether this is implemented in typical audio devices, but it's another thing that can lead to increased efficiency.

4.) The USB maximum bandwidth is theoretical -- USB 2.0 devices can reach up to 480 Mbps, but they usually don't because of system overhead and other inefficiencies. The bandwidth of Firewire 400 is also theoretical, but benchmarks show (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=firewire+vs.+usb+benchmark) that Firewire devices turn out to be much faster than USB devices in practice.

All of those together are reasons why the more expensive audio interfaces are Firewire instead of USB. USB's shortcomings become less conspicuous with a faster machine, but it's still a less appealing solution for serious sound projects, especially for multitrack recording.

If you do have a USB mixer or interface, you can maintain reliable sound by plugging it directly into one of your machine's USB ports -- do not put it on a hub -- and by having a fair amount of RAM. Don't run more programs while you're recording than you need to, save real-time effects for later, and if you have a choice, don't record to a USB external drive. Recording to a Firewire external drive is fine.

[SFEley]

There is one downside to firewire: There's more likely to be device interrupt conflicts using firewire interfaces. I'm working on a book about podcasting and I tested 10 interfaces on five computers, three Mac and two PCs. None of the USB interfaces had device conflicts on any of the computers. Three of the firewire devices had conflicts on more than one of the computers and one of the firewire devices wouldn't work on one of the Macs.
What devices did you test, and what specific errors did you experience?

I'm a little surprised because I've never heard of anything like what you seem to be describing. In fact I've almost never heard about a "device interrupt" problem since the DOS/Windows 95 days -- the whole point of these modern serial buses is that everything shares an IRQ. Especially on the Mac, I expected it to be an obsolete issue.

I have seen issues with individual software applications. My Mackie Onyx's Firewire card worked on my Mac Mini with no drivers needed -- but an older version of Audacity choked on it, and Skype doesn't seem to realize it exists. That's not a system problem, though. The operating system and more serious sound apps that were built for Core Audio worked with it transparently.


All that said, there will be some higher-end applications that require firewire but in a situation where the work is exclusively distributed as a podcast, I can't think of many that will apply.
This is true. I said what I did about Firewire's advantages because somebody asked. There's a common misperception that USB 2.0 must be better than Firewire (because 480 > 400) and that's just not true. However, for basic stereo sound input on a halfway modern PC, if you don't plug it into a hub, a USB 2.0 device should work flawlessly in almost any case.

[sbourne]

I am in the process of completing my tests and writing the book and I will detail all my findings when the book ships. I should note that I am not a computer specialist (I am a sound designer and engineer) and that perhaps some of the problems were software based. But I am testing for the AVERAGE user, i.e., someone who may not be a computer engineer.

The problems were evenly split between Mac and PC and you're right that it is the odd combination that doesn't work. Here's one case in point.

I tried the Alesis Multimix Firewire mixer/interface with a Mac G5 OSX 4.4 and there were conflicts. The same mixer worked fine on a PC running Windows XP. The USB version of that same mixer works perfectly on both.

I realize that these sorts of discussions on forums can become WAY to granular. I merely wanted to alert non-techincal people that there are possible challenges to implementing firewire interfaces.

I happily use the Alesis Multimix Eight USB version every day for podcasting in my "b" room. In my "a" room and for my "serious" recording work, I use the Onyx 1640 firewire.

[SFEley]

I tried the Alesis Multimix Firewire mixer/interface with a Mac G5 OSX 4.4 and there were conflicts. The same mixer worked fine on a PC running Windows XP. The USB version of that same mixer works perfectly on both.
What was the specific error? Was it an actual "device interrupt conflict," or did some software simply fail to work? (And if so, what programs?) Did you attempt to resolve the issue in Audio/MIDI Setup and in the software preferences? Was it a Core Audio application, and did you make sure the bit rate and sample rate were set to values the mixer could handle?

I realize that these sorts of discussions on forums can become WAY to granular. I merely wanted to alert non-techincal people that there are possible challenges to implementing firewire interfaces.
Fair enough, but when it comes to making actual buying decisions -- or to giving advice on them -- precision matters. I for one would like to know more about what worked and what didn't. Feel free to PM me if you're concerned about bogging down the thread. And, of course, let me know if there's any way I can help you in return.

[sbourne]

"What was the specific error? Was it an actual "device interrupt conflict," or did some software simply fail to work? (And if so, what programs?) Did you attempt to resolve the issue in Audio/MIDI Setup and in the software preferences? Was it a Core Audio application, and did you make sure the bit rate and sample rate were set to values the mixer could handle? "

You see I think you still might not get my point. These sorts of questions, let alone their answers are far beyond the average person who is just getting into podcasting. Based on my experience, which is the only experience I have, the people who want help with podcasting just want things to work. And it really doesn't matter whether it's a core audio problem or a device conflict. They want REAL plug and play. If it's not there, they won't be happy.

As for this particular set up, I don't have my notes in front of me but yes I do actually believe it was a device conflict. The program was GarageBand. I did in fact attempt to resolve the issue in the Audio/MIDI setup and preferences to no avail. And while I am not a computer engineer, I am an audio engineer and smart enough to know how to appropriately designate the right sample rate.

This was just a plain and simple device conflict and goes to the heart of my original post. Non-technical people are far less likely (if at all) to run into these conflicts if they use USB connections rather than firewire. And as you correctly point out, for most basic stereo signal to moderately equipped computer applications, USB is fine.

I do appreciate the detailed explanation of the advantages of firewire that you pointed out. Some I was aware of and some I was not.

Thanks.

[SFEley]

You see I think you still might not get my point. These sorts of questions, let alone their answers are far beyond the average person who is just getting into podcasting.

I think I did get your point. You're saying that simplicity is a virtue. In reference to technology, I fully agree. All else being equal, it's better to go with the solution that Just Works.

In reference to information about technology, however, I'm pedantic (http://www.podcastpedant.com). Somewhere, someone's going to come home with the same equipment you tried, and encounter the same problem. Most people are going to at least try to solve their problems before they return the thing, and they may go Googling for solutions.

If you can post enough information -- here, or anywhere else discoverable -- so that people with audio problems can learn that their problems aren't unique, and maybe contribute enough to the general knowledge pool that the community can help to get the hardware working, isn't it good karma to do so? Heck, it might even sell a book or two.

Just my perspective. I'm really not trying to be a smartass about it. I'm just trying to know everything. >8->

[sbourne]

No problem. As soon as I finish the book I will provide this information. I am not so sure how relevant it will be since things change so quickly but I did do the test, mostly out of curiosity since this seems to be an area where people find trouble.

I didn't take your responses as being "smartass" at all. Thanks.

[crybabyemokids]

I'm about to purchase a USB interface, but I have some newbie questions which im guessing some of you would be able to answer.

well anyways

If i'm on a phonecall on skype, or if I'm playing some background sound effects/music, how will all of that get recorded on Audacity and would the other person be able to hear both

Don't flame me for being such a noob :(

This is my only worry before purchasing this, as Skype reads through only one soundcard at a time, and if it's on the mixer instead of the soundcard thats playing the tracks, I dont know how it would recognise it.

yeah i hope i made it clear what my problem is.

any help would be appreciated.

[ElNacho]

i think for skype, ud need either a mixer with aux-send or two soundcards

[powwows]

Great discussion, but back to my first question. I need a mixer either usb or firewire that I can connect 2 mics to and travel with.

Any recommendations?

[SFEley]

Great discussion, but back to my first question. I need a mixer either usb or firewire that I can connect 2 mics to and travel with.

So you'll be recording to a laptop? Consider the M-Audio MobilePRE. It's not a mixer, but it can handle the same sorts of jobs. And while I don't consider the noise level to be 100% ideal for studio work, it's acceptable for most mics -- and probably won't even be noticed if you're recording in the field.

[powwows]

Yes, I'll be recording with a laptop or possibly a mini disc. But mostly the laptop.

That looks like it could work.

Thanks

[Saberj]

To extend this conversation(Hopefully I'm not hijacking, as the thread seems dead at this point anywho), if I am in the price range of $200-$300, would you try for a Firewire mixer? Or stick with USB. I'm looking to get a new mixer to replace my current Behringer. I have a Mac-mini as the host computer, so either interface is fine. In the near future I'd like to do some 4-person recording, and this mixer will probably need 4 Mic inputs. I know that a USB mixer is only going to record in stereo. Is there any decent Firewire mixers with 4 channel outputs out there for around $300? Or would you guys just suggest going with a usb mixer?

Also related, will Garageband accept 4 channels from a Firewire mixer? I'm thinking about switching to something that will actually let me normalize audio(Any suggestions? Would Soundtrack pro do the trick? Or would Audacity do better) if I can find a simple solution to adding chapter marks and artwork.

Any suggestions? I know for $299, I can get the Alesis Multimix 8 Firewire. Hmm

[ElNacho]

go firewire. it's what all the cool kids are doing.

[pwfenton]

To extend this conversation(Hopefully I'm not hijacking, as the thread seems dead at this point anywho), if I am in the price range of $200-$300, would you try for a Firewire mixer? Or stick with USB. I'm looking to get a new mixer to replace my current Behringer. I have a Mac-mini as the host computer, so either interface is fine. In the near future I'd like to do some 4-person recording, and this mixer will probably need 4 Mic inputs. I know that a USB mixer is only going to record in stereo. Is there any decent Firewire mixers with 4 channel outputs out there for around $300? Or would you guys just suggest going with a usb mixer?

Also related, will Garageband accept 4 channels from a Firewire mixer? I'm thinking about switching to something that will actually let me normalize audio(Any suggestions? Would Soundtrack pro do the trick? Or would Audacity do better) if I can find a simple solution to adding chapter marks and artwork.

Any suggestions? I know for $299, I can get the Alesis Multimix 8 Firewire. Hmm

First... being able to record two more than two tracks at once isn't really a "Firewire vs. USB" issue. Either communications means could do it. It's a software driver issue. If your hardware can do it, and your mixer's driver is written to do it... then it will work.

So first the mixer has to do it... then the recording software you use has to support it. I haven't used garage band enough to know if it supports it... but I suspect it does. I do know that Soundtrack Pro can do it.

I'm not sure that Audacity can choose a separate source for each track. If it can then you are in business for free.

[SFEley]

First... being able to record two more than two tracks at once isn't really a "Firewire vs. USB" issue. Either communications means could do it. It's a software driver issue. If your hardware can do it, and your mixer's driver is written to do it... then it will work.
Yes, but in practice, the only mixers with multichannel conversion seem to be Firewire ones. (The Mackie Onyx 1220, the Alesis Multimix Firewire.) USB mixers all seem to be stereo only. If there's an exception to this, I'd like to know about it.


So first the mixer has to do it... then the recording software you use has to support it. I haven't used garage band enough to know if it supports it... but I suspect it does. I do know that Soundtrack Pro can do it.


I'm afraid you're wrong, P.W. Soundtrack Pro handles stereo recording only. You can edit many tracks with it, but you can't record multitrack. That's one of its key limitations vs. Logic or even Garage Band (which does do multitrack).

[Saberj]

First... being able to record two more than two tracks at once isn't really a "Firewire vs. USB" issue. Either communications means could do it. It's a software driver issue. If your hardware can do it, and your mixer's driver is written to do it... then it will work.
Yes, but in practice, the only mixers with multichannel conversion seem to be Firewire ones. (The Mackie Onyx 1220, the Alesis Multimix Firewire.) USB mixers all seem to be stereo only. If there's an exception to this, I'd like to know about it.


So the Alesis Multimix would do multichannel, then? I didn't see a mention of that. I suppose the only reason I really want multichannel support is to control the volum levels independantly. Is there some other great benefit to multichannel recording? I imagine you could also edit seperate tracks if you wanted, but if you were in the same room, there is a good possibility that things are being picked up on multiple mics...

[SFEley]

So the Alesis Multimix would do multichannel, then?
The Firewire Multimix will. Not the USB Multimix.

I suppose the only reason I really want multichannel support is to control the volum levels independantly.
You can do that with any mixer, digital or analog...

Is there some other great benefit to multichannel recording? I imagine you could also edit seperate tracks if you wanted, but if you were in the same room, there is a good possibility that things are being picked up on multiple mics...
You got it: the reason for multitrack recording is the ability to edit or apply effects to each channel separately in postproduction. Whether that's important really depends on your production process and the complexity of the work you're doing. For most podcasters it probably isn't.

(In practice, BTW, sound bleeding across mics does happen, but it's not that significant if your mics are well-positioned and gain is set properly.)

[Saberj]

So the Alesis Multimix would do multichannel, then?
The Firewire Multimix will. Not the USB Multimix.

I suppose the only reason I really want multichannel support is to control the volum levels independantly.
You can do that with any mixer, digital or analog...


Well, I guess you could, if you have a sound card with more than one input...



Is there some other great benefit to multichannel recording? I imagine you could also edit seperate tracks if you wanted, but if you were in the same room, there is a good possibility that things are being picked up on multiple mics...
You got it: the reason for multitrack recording is the ability to edit or apply effects to each channel separately in postproduction. Whether that's important really depends on your production process and the complexity of the work you're doing. For most podcasters it probably isn't.

(In practice, BTW, sound bleeding across mics does happen, but it's not that significant if your mics are well-positioned and gain is set properly.)

Yeah, unfortuantely my gain is NEVER set right. We got rid of our MXL 990 because it was picking up crickets outside. Well, not really, but pretty close. It's really hard to wrap your head around gain vs output volume. I don't want to turn the gain down too low only to have to turn the output up way high and get noise....