Want to Sign with Podshow? WAIT! Something FRESH is coming!

[kickasspodcast]

I can't say much, but I can say that I know that Podshow is having a big hoorah "Quit your Day Job" festival/campaign starting next week, you know... there are other projects going on, please folks, take a minute to listen...

to this (http://libsyn.com/media/cdogg/SomethingFresh.mp3)
and then this (http://libsyn.com/media/cdogg/Fresh_Media_Works_Promo02.mp3)

Seriously Huge News, biggest Podcast News of Q1 2006. Check it out, and play those clips on all your shows. There's something for EVERYONE, a rethinking on community involvement + quality content + fair compensation + cooperative thinking.

Seriously, seriously, good, good stuff, I for one can wait.

Heads up Podshow, something FRESH is coming!

3 years and 40% just ain't gonna cut it anymore! ;)


Jack

[ElNacho]

loox like ya no a bit more about this than i do. goo day der budday! but yeah folks u no dis gonna b big ****, so u bettah play that, and spread dat around!

[kinkysex]

3 years and 40% just ain't gonna cut it anymore! ;)

What's that mean? Is this another Curry show thing?

[kickasspodcast]

Mr. Curry is not involved in this project. It is not my project either to be very clear.


Hope it helps!

But please check out the promos and play them if you can, you'll be glad you did!


Jack

[Slone]

I expect a lot of these will be popping up over 2006..

I hope this "Something Fresh" is going to be more fresh than that over embossed graphic, slapped with some drop shadow on their home page :roll: :lol:

[GilPodcast]

Jack, you're losing your cool here. Apart from kinkysex you also made me think it was about Podshow and Adam Curry.

And another point. You of all people are asking us to sign up to something we know nothing about? Just sign up? To what? A page saying fresh media works and play my promo? No explanation, no nothing.

Not cool. Not cool at all.

[kinkysex]

no, no, no. I thought the phrase, "3 years and 40%" was a Curry thing. Like, "have a break today" is a McDonald's thing.

I stilll don't have a clue what "3 years and 40%" means.

Since I don't listen to Curry's show (pod planet? or something like that) I though I was out of the loop on a catchphrase. :D

[podcastrant.com]

"3 years and 40%" is in reference to the contract that PodShow supposedly presents to podcasters. You are signed with them for three years and you get 40% and they get 60%.

A lot of podcasters have said that 3 years in this world of podcasting is entirely too long. Especially since it's been around a little over a year. And they believe the percentages are reminiscent of the major record labels that Curry is always preaching against.

About "Something Fresh" I can only imagine that it's an "answer" to PodShow. Time will tell.

[GilPodcast]

About "Something Fresh" I can only imagine that it's an "answer" to PodShow.

Being against Podshow is not a business model. If you don't like Podshow you can use Podtrac. It's not very successful in attracting advertisers, but it is sort of well established.

[podcastrant.com]

Sorry I wasn't clear. By answer I meant a organization that had better terms than PodShow. Since a lot of podcasters seem to have been wary of their terms. I said nothing about Something Fresh being anti-PodShow. Maybe you got that from the other posts, but since you quoted me I thought I should clarify.

[adamc1999]

Sorry I wasn't clear. By answer I meant a organization that had better terms than PodShow. Since a lot of podcasters seem to have been wary of their terms.

Perhaps you should not speculate on things you have no knowledge of. You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

AC

[el]

I've heard they reviewed their terms .

Fresh sounds interesting, it doesn't have $8million+ VC funding though, does it?

[kinkysex]

You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

Alright, d*mnit! Speak english!

{sigh}

Someone - what's "PDN"?

I'm gonna guess, "Porn Distribution Network". Which in another name for the internet. Did I win?!

[Marilynfan]

You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

Alright, d*mnit! Speak english!

{sigh}

Someone - what's "PDN"?

I'm gonna guess, "Porn Distribution Network". Which in another name for the internet. Did I win?!

PDN = podcast delivery network

[SFEley]

Perhaps you should not speculate on things you have no knowledge of. You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

So help us out, Adam. Why not dispel the rumors now? It's been very widely reported that the standard Podshow contract offered to recent signers locks in distribution rights for all podcast work for three years, takes a 60% commission on ads, and leaves the podcaster little or no control over what advertising content is run in his/her podcast.

If this is wrong, don't beat around the bush. Tell us "No, those aren't our terms, these are our terms" and give us a correct summary. Otherwise the speculation will go on forever, even after the PDN is launched, and so will the bad feelings from people who believe terms like the above are very bad ideas.

Why the secrecy? Is this really about developers and users partying together, or is the party a trade secret? I seriously believe you have the right intentions, but if what you're doing is really about podcasters, why put everything into a black box? Who wins from that?

[adamc1999]

It's been very widely reported
That is not true, there has been no report with any evidence of this. Let alone 'widely reported'.

Ofcourse we'll make everything public, when we're ready to release.

AC

[SFEley]

That is not true, there has been no report with any evidence of this. Let alone 'widely reported'.
I've heard it independently from six sources. FWIW, they were talking about the current Podshow contract that's been offered to many podcasters already, not whatever PDN is going to offer.

If anyone signed onto those terms, I believe they made a very bad decision. And if they didn't, then you need to air things out in the open, Adam. Right now Podshow is being talked about as the new RIAA. Not just from one or two hotheads like me, but from a lot of people. If that's unjust, fight it with the truth.


Ofcourse we'll make everything public, when we're ready to release.
You can end the rumors and "line in the sand" attitudes whenever you decide to, Adam. There's no need to wait.

[conradslater]

You of all people are asking us to sign up to something we know nothing about? Just sign up? To what? A page saying fresh media works and play my promo? No explanation, no nothing.

Not cool. Not cool at all.

Well I've signed up but I agree it's a pathetic looking site (worse than mine) and really tacky generic bumper.

Why on earth would i want to share a 20 second clip of someone saying "Something fresh is coming" with some cheesey guitar over it.

I don't want to sound like a flamer but nothing I've read suggsts whatever this new product is it is anyway fresh at all. It's no different from advertising a podcast which hasn't even recorded a single episode yet. Why should anyone care?

sorry if my opinions offend

[GilPodcast]

PodcastRant,

Sorry if I wasn't too clear. This whole thread seems to be more confusing than anything. I wasn't really saying you as in you PodcastRant. I was saying you as in what you Southerners describe as "y'all" as in everybody in general or people. Sorry for the confusion.

I like your podcast. Just the name is confusing. I still have to remind myself to read the name as podcast-rant and not pod-castrant as in castrated by a pod. :D

[cdoelle]

To be clear on a couple things...

something fresh is coming - and it is not an "answer" to podshow so much as what we feel is a fresh new look at the standard monetization models being offered to podcasters.

Podtrac and Podshow have been great for podcasting and have helped to build awareness of podcasting to the general public, but let me remind you that a)both are also startups and b)neither is what has made YOUR show a success to the degree that it is.

Each podcaster has busted their hump to make their show a success, they have done it by working long hours coming up with good content, editing, tweaking, guerilla marketing, and working with other podcasters.

At Fresh Media Works we are not trying to say that FMW is your answer - we are trying to say that WE the podcasters are the answer.

The website is still in development so forgive the fact that we didn't throw a ton of money into a snazzy placeholder. Our intent was simply to allow people to know that something is coming and in light of recent announcements (about upcoming announcements haha) we wanted to let people sign up to hear more as it comes out.

Rest assured ALL the details will be made public before anyone signs a contract.

[podcastrant.com]

"About "Something Fresh" I can only imagine that it's an "answer" to PodShow. Time will tell." - Hey Adam did you see this? I said "imagine" I have no insdie knowledge of PodShow or Something Fresh.

I do know of 5+ people that were asked to be of PodShow and unless they can't read that was your terms. If you change it for PDN then that is a totally different question.

Adam wrote: "Perhaps you should not speculate on things you have no knowledge of. You could look foolish when we open the PDN."

Like I said above I can only go on what you've offered to folks in the past.

Gil - thanks but I don't have a cast called podcastrant. I have 5 others though. Which one do you like?

[Metaphore]

So should Vidcasters be interested in this at all or is geared toward audio podcasts like all the others?

[cdoelle]

So should Vidcasters be interested in this at all or is geared toward audio podcasts like all the others?

Most definitely - my apologies for lumping everyone together. Vidcasters are going to a HUGE part of this.

[podcastrant.com]

And let me say before Adam lays into me again, that I think the people that PodShow have working for them are a very talented group of people. I'm fairly confident that when they release the PDN it will be an impressive thing.

Will I join? Probably not. Would they even want me? Probably not. I'd never say never but I have my own plans.

Podcastrant said:"3 years and 40% is in reference to the contract that PodShow supposedly presents to podcasters. " See that word supposedly? LIke I said I have no first hand knowledge of the specifics of PodShow's dealings. So I don't see how I could look like a fool once the PDN is released.

[ElNacho]

because it will be filled to the brim with podcasts that make fun of you, chad! :twisted:

[podcastrant.com]

my life is over....anonymous people laughed at me.. :twisted:

[ElNacho]

but did they annoy you? Report them to the fuzz! Have the man keep 'em down!

[kickasspodcast]

Perhaps you should not speculate on things you have no knowledge of. You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

AC

Hey Adam-

PDN?
Would that be the Podcast Delivery Network?

http://www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com/


This whole thread seems to be more confusing than anything

Not really, you just had to listen to the 2nd promo and you would have completely understood what this is about. Take it from the Profit Nacho, its all good.

Its hilarious to see how defensive some people get with even the tiniest bit of information, say what you want about the website, it still beats Podshows (http://sirius.podshow.com/) right? Its just a placeholder while more important details are being worked out. :)

This is a Podcaster driven project, its not from the top down, that is the difference.

Jack

[ElNacho]

Hey Adam-

PDN?
Would that be the Podcast Delivery Network?

http://www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com/



aaaaaaahahahahhhah
wait...why did chris buy podcast delivery network in the beginning of november...??

[McLean]

I'm probably stupid...what is the big deal with this fresh stuff? Is it a podcast lister or some sort of thing where you'll get paid to podcast there or what?

[Hollywood Adam]

Can someone tell us what it is without having to listen? I'm lazy.

[cybercooler]

Its about some site doing a prelaunch, hoping that by giving you a morsel you will sit by the table and wait for another table scrap. It's a marketing gimmick (used by every internet site to build anticipation), but I look forward to whatever it is. Here let me save you the listen (and why this wasn't in the original post... )

http://www.freshmediaworks.com/

As for Podshow, I know some people like to bash em. I've never understood that. Henry Ford made the first car, for those who didn't get to drive a Ford a chevy came along shortly.

Any service for Podcasters is great. Those that are good will make it (Kiptronic, Podtrac, Podshow) and those that suck (Fruitcast, and a SLEW of others) will more than likely fade away.

[SFEley]

As for Podshow, I know some people like to bash em. I've never understood that. Henry Ford made the first car, for those who didn't get to drive a Ford a chevy came along shortly.
The issue I have is not with quality of service. The issue I have is with the terms. If buying a Ford meant you had to sign an agreement saying you couldn't buy, rent, borrow or test drive a Chevy for three years, would you support that? "Any service for drivers is great?"

[Hollywood Adam]

Any service for Podcasters is great.

You mean like www.podcastershomepage.com
*sorry, had to throw my own plug in there*

[GilPodcast]

Hey Adam-

PDN?
Would that be the Podcast Delivery Network?

http://www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com/



aaaaaaahahahahhhah
wait...why did chris buy podcast delivery network in the beginning of november...??

Hijacking of other podcaster's trademarks?

Fresh Media Works: brought to you by the people who also brought you Enron. :)

[pwfenton]

The issue I have is not with quality of service. The issue I have is with the terms. If buying a Ford meant you had to sign an agreement saying you couldn't buy, rent, borrow or test drive a Chevy for three years, would you support that? "Any service for drivers is great?"

Two things. First... if you don't like the terms. Don't accept them. Case closed. If I go to Ford to buy a car and I don't like their terms... I don't buy it. I don't start a campaign against Ford. Ford doesn't owe me anything. I just move on. I don't care if other people agree to those terms.

Second... contracts are something you negotiate... and an offer is just that... an offer. Last time I bought a car I thought the offer the dealer made was a joke. I counter offered. Eventually we agreed on a price. That's how contracts work.

Also I'm thinking about what the uproar is supposedly about... a podcaster being offered 40% of all revenue from advertising from a company with the means to obtain that advertising. You guys are kidding me right?

Most podcasters I know do nothing but SPEND money to pursue their muse. Most podcasters I know wouldn't even know how to go about getting a major corporation to advertise on their show, and they certainly wouldn't have the means and resources needed to do it. So along comes someone who CAN do it... and they say... "You invest the talent and great content... I'll get the big advertisers and spend whatever money I need to in the process to accomplish that... all you invest is what you are already doing for nothing... and we'll split 60-40 (assuming that number actually has any relevance).

On one hand the podcaster owns 100% of an expense, on the other hand the podcaster owns 40% of a potential income. If the company making the offer doesn't succeed... they lose a whole lot of money. While the podcaster loses nothing he wouldn't have lost anyway.

Personally... my podcast Digital Flotsam was quite successful in terms of popularity. But every time I gained another thousand listeners I had to pay more for bandwidth to put out the show. In fact, one IP just dropped me... saying we can't handle the traffic. Well the day I decided to make my podcast a Podshow Podcast... I instantly started saving hundreds of dollars a month. Success was no longer costing me hard earned money.

Now I'm fairly certain that my podcast hasn't earned a cent of profit for Podshow yet. But it will. Yet podcasting no longer costs me money.

You tell ME how it is I am getting screwed?

While I'm writing this... I'm thinking about the 3 year issue. You be Podshow for a minute. You, as Mr. Podshow, think that podcasting can be a new way for advertisers to reach people in ways they couldn't before. You think that you could make some money at that. So you gather up a huge pile of cash to run a business that starts WITHOUT AN INCOME. That's how businesses start... with huge risk. So you need to hire content producers. So you offer them a piece of the ad revenues. But you are spending lots of money obtaining that revenue flow... and providing bandwidth... and distribution and promotion. You might not be in the black for YEARS. Do you want to contract podcasters for just one year? Do you want to spend money making that podcaster a success so he can leave you before you have personally turned a profit? Of course you don't.

Look at the two satellite radio companies... XM & Sirius... they haven't made a profit YET. I have no doubt they eventually will... but right now they are investing... that's how business works.

People read that Ron Bloom & Adam Curry got 8.5 million dollars and they think that they are rich guys looking to ride on the backs of podcasters. That 8.5 million is a debt... a loan... not a gift... those investors want that back... and more. That may be operating capital... but it sure ain't profit. That is money that is going to be SPENT trying to make a podcasters 40% (if that's what they signed for) worth something. That's money that has to be made back before there is a cent of profit. Scary ain't it.

Thank goodness I just podcast. I've got enough debt.

[cdoelle]

Hey Adam-

PDN?
Would that be the Podcast Delivery Network?

http://www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com/



aaaaaaahahahahhhah
wait...why did chris buy podcast delivery network in the beginning of november...??

Hijacking of other podcaster's trademarks?

Fresh Media Works: brought to you by the people who also brought you Enron. :)

Nice - gotta love the Alley. Wow, I wasn't aware that I was responsible for Enron and as far as hijacking trademarks, that was registered before the words were ever uttered together by anyone in Podshow.

Not very good detective work there. You have an awful lot of incorrect assumptions, charges, and inuendo for someone who created a podcast (with no episodes) about a private eye.

Off-base accusations: brought to you by a newbie podcaster who also brought you - uh, well... nothing. :)


PDub: Well said. Thank you for helping to put things into perspective as always.

[podcastrant.com]

Pdub, I couldn't have said it better.

[kickasspodcast]

PW-

You just podcast? Your not, and haven't been, Mr. Curry's "helper" for a long, long time now? You say alot of good stuff, but I don't believe its based on the details we can all verifiy. Your not just "a podcaster", your a company man. You work for adam and ron and don't own anything but your domain do you? I don't believe you spent 100s of dollars per month on your show and I don't believe your "just a podcaster schtick".

How on earth were you spending 100s of dollars a month on your show before podshow came along. This is bologna. Care to elaborate? BTW- Time is free, you can't count that.

You do make some good points but are, again, far too eager to defend something that was never under attack.

PW and AC have made Podshow look bad in this thread. I'd think VERY carefully before posting more crap, its just making you look like morons. Sorry, but it is. I said "like" I didn't call you crap, so plx don't censor me.

I just can't help but realize how meek Podshow must be to react to 1 post on hinting of news to come. Its just 1 thread people, why all the defensive crap, nobody attacked you.

It must mean they know there is a need for a better idea, and its on its way. Its called cooperation!

Hollywood Adam- You will like this upcoming project because it ain't exclusive (unlike other networks), plus you are in control, you ain't nobodies biotch. Nice Makers Avi btw biznatch, hope all is going well and of course FYNS. ;)


Chad-


Now I'm fairly certain that my podcast hasn't earned a cent of profit for Podshow yet. But it will. Yet podcasting no longer costs me money.

You seriously ain't buying this sales pitch are you?

He just said a few lines up that he has achieved popularity


Personally... my podcast Digital Flotsam was quite successful in terms of popularity.

Now a few lines later he posts this and asserts that he isn't really garnering revenue. Oh, yeah, ok. That lines up GREAT. Makes tons o sense, you are just a podcaster, but your shows uber pop, but you can't make money for podshow, and they are doing you a favor. Does anyone buy this crap?

You tell ME how it is I am getting screwed?

You are getting screwed when you have to start convincing other people that you aren't getting screwed, that is pretty much a tell tale sign.


BTW- we all know you do alot more for Podshow and Mr. Curry than just syndicate a podcast, why pretend you haven't been doing loads of work for your pay for a good while now?

BTW- 40% of total personal potential sucks. I think each podcaster is entitled to a majority of his/her own potential. I'd never settle for 40%. That would diminish all my efforts.

BTW- PW. Your shows are about 10-15 megs per episode. You can pay for 5000 listeners an episode at 5 shows a month, for about 30 bucks. So where again are those 100s of dollars again?

Don't bother answering.....

But all in all, why are the people from Podshow so defensive in this thread? Nobody attacked you. Actually Mr. Curry recently attacked me, saying that my 'day job is polluting conversations'. Funny how he wants to join the one I started and start defending something that isn't under attack.

At least everyone now totally knows that something FRESH is indeed coming, its a better idea, and obviously some people already feel threatened by even a slice of what is to come. This must mean we're on the right track, I mean, there hasn't even been any solid info released, so how could anyone justify so much defensive babble, obviously its a good sign.

:) :) :)

PW,

I truly believe you are a good person, I can kind of tell it. But good people dish out BS information all the time. 3 years in an eternity in media. To think otherwise is to clearly not understand media. VC investments aren't a gift its an agreement. If the company makes money, the core investors make the most, based on initial investments. Its no more complicated then that. I, we all know about how the process works. Nobody makes anyone invest in anything also. You can't compare it to a sat radio company because that is just a bad comparison, an uncomperable example. And yet another crafted attempt at spinning things. Its amazing, when it comes to business, you guys are ruthless aren't you? VC investments are a loan or debt? **** no, they are investors, why spin that too? They are investors, we all know how that works, its not a bank loaning you money, its not a debt. You fail and the VCs fail, you make money, and the VCs make money. Why spin this kinda stuff?

Its ok, because I don't think Podshow really understands media or the independent podcaster, as I have probably already said far, far too much, I can say that I am comfortable with what is to come. I really don't understand why the need to justify or defend, but who knows. Can't we all just get along? I am trying to start help to get the word out about a new great opportunity for ALL podcasters. What is with this derision?

Jack


REFRESH cause I edited like mad, sorry but I wanted to say everything just like I mean for it to come across.

[SFEley]

Two things. First... if you don't like the terms. Don't accept them. Case closed. If I go to Ford to buy a car and I don't like their terms... I don't buy it. I don't start a campaign against Ford. Ford doesn't owe me anything. I just move on. I don't care if other people agree to those terms.

Sure thing. "Every man for himself" is a perfectly justifiable perspective.

I've decided not to make it mine. I honestly view podcasting as a community, and there's an awful lot going on right now in its growing pains. My worry is that not everyone has the information, the experience, or the patience to make a fully informed decision on issues with major long-term consequences for their podcast.

The reason I'm communicating on this issue is not to talk everyone out of Podshow. It's not to give a hard time to people already with Podshow. It's to make sure that everyone, every podcaster at every level, understands that there are choices in the market today.

There are other advertising services out there that take much lower commissions and do not require long-term contracts. There are several, in fact, reaching for different parts of the market. Some offer excellent automation for ad integration; some offer the podcaster full right of refusal on all offers; some are shooting for very high CPM rates, some very low but with more placements.

Podcasters who have knowledge of all of the different services can make the best decisions for their podcast. For some podcasters, it may be that Podshow's full-service hosting and promotion services are compelling enough to outweigh any disadvantages in Podshow's terms. And that's great -- as long as they know it's not the only game in town.


Also I'm thinking about what the uproar is supposedly about... a podcaster being offered 40% of all revenue from advertising from a company with the means to obtain that advertising. You guys are kidding me right?
Let's say one company offered you 40%, another offered you 70%, and another offered you 75%. Assuming all had mature track records (which is not true of any of them today, but the world is still young) and could sell at equivalent rates, which offer would be most appealing to you?


While I'm writing this... I'm thinking about the 3 year issue. You be Podshow for a minute. You, as Mr. Podshow, think that podcasting can be a new way for advertisers to reach people in ways they couldn't before. You think that you could make some money at that. So you gather up a huge pile of cash to run a business that starts WITHOUT AN INCOME. That's how businesses start... with huge risk. So you need to hire content producers. So you offer them a piece of the ad revenues. But you are spending lots of money obtaining that revenue flow... and providing bandwidth... and distribution and promotion. You might not be in the black for YEARS. Do you want to contract podcasters for just one year? Do you want to spend money making that podcaster a success so he can leave you before you have personally turned a profit? Of course you don't.

And yet... There are services competing with Podshow that have no binding contracts at all, simply declarations of intent. Podshow's approach is not the only one.


People read that Ron Bloom & Adam Curry got 8.5 million dollars and they think that they are rich guys looking to ride on the backs of podcasters. That 8.5 million is a debt... a loan... not a gift... those investors want that back... and more.

There's a hell of a difference between an investment and a loan, P.W., even at this level of simplification. If you're lecturing people on business strategy, I sure hope you don't view them as equivalent, or seriously believe the following:

That's money that has to be made back before there is a cent of profit. Scary ain't it.
Not scary. Wrong. Investments aren't liabilities. They don't come before profit; they purchase shares of the profit.

But all that goes far afield. Essential point: there are choices. What Podshow is offering is not a choice I would make. In terms of revenue, I think I can do better on my own. (I'm already thousands of dollars in the black without any ads). And in terms of the long-term commitment on both current and future podcast concepts, I find it ethically appalling. If I signed onto that deal, I'd be trading my future in podcasting for an IOU, with no cash up front and very little participation in how that future will be earned back. It's the sort of behavior record companies engage in. That's why I'm surprised and a little shocked that Adam's totally on board with it.

That's my take. I won't say it's the only valid perspective; other people may have different priorities, and that's great. What matters, again, is that there are choices. We all have to figure out what's best for our podcast. And we need to do it with the best information we can.

[ElNacho]

whats that last paragraph mean jack?

Ive been working with Fresh Media Works for a long time! I used to be like selfless but now i have total control! no one tells me what to do now! kay? so Fresh Media is good okay the stuff is good!

[AaronfromQC]

Ok die in shock here people but I'm gonna say something positive about Podshow and then of course I'll go back to being my normal self....When you sign up for podshow, you have one of the top rated podcaters in the world behind you. In my case, I'd rather not have that, but there is something to be said for having a guy who is recognized by name alone. Being in podshow pretty much guarantees a constant chance at recognition for your show since they've gone to promoting within almost entirely. So if you want to boost your audience, that is something Podshow can help with because let's be honest, the other groups out there just don't have a C list celebrity to help guide your podcast career.

But the downside to the deal is brutal. 40% of anything is an insult. You bring your talent to the table, risk some credibility with your audience cause you aren't seen as "indie" anymore and in return, you get less than half. Only deal better than that is Anna Nicole Smith and that old guy. He dies, she gets 100%. I'm sorry but if you think 40% is a screamin deal, maybe I can talk you into buy shares of Deloreon, they make bitchen cars you know.

Then comes 3 years. 3 years of anything locked in is brutal. Don't like the deal after a year, or think you should get paid more. Too bad, 2 more years to go. Come on Adam, these are podcasters, not Howard Stern. You don't need to tie them down to 3 years and you know it. You offer the WORST terms in the industry right now. Do your VC people know that you offer these kind of terms and do they understand them?? If you decide to go with Podshow, GET A LAWYER and have him read that contract front and back, twice. There are other offers coming people, might be worth it just to sit tight and do the show you do.

[ElNacho]

*dead in shock*

[loganrapp]

People think you always need a lawyer when it comes to contracts.

You don't.

Rule of Thumb: If you can't understand it after you've spent an hour reading it - regardless of length - throw it back at them. Simple. Contracts do need to get into legalese, yes, but it should still be understood by the layman. If it's not, then it's hiding something.

You also need to get a contact notarized, anyway, for it to be legal. So set an appointment with a notary, then ask if they can go over it with you. Some don't have time for it, but just find someone with time, and they will give it to you straight-up. Some lawyers will spend more time than is necessary to go over legal documents with you because you pay them by the hour.

So no, I really don't think anyone who signs that contract and then realizes they got screwed should be deserving of pity. You put your name on it, and then you went out and got someone to certify that the contract is valid, and didn't ask any questions that needed to be asked. Ignorance is not a valid excuse for getting screwed over a legal binding contract. No one's putting a gun to your head, and you're not some NFL First Round draft prospect with hundreds of thousands of people watching you and pressuring you into endorsements, etc.

The contract has zero pressure on you to sign. It's literally, "here's our offer, we think it's a good offer for everyone, if you like it, sign." There aren't any backdoor dealings going on, or third parties trying to mess with your head. You're not talking to some faceless lawyer three or four levels down the corporate ladder. You're in direct contact with the people of PodShow who make decisions for the company. Adam Curry, like him or not, is a very accessable guy. I randomly shot off a voice mp3 to tell him something about LOST, and he put it up on the DSC the very next show. You may not have his home number on speed dial, but you are still capable of contacting the main guy of PodShow, which is a level of accessability that I have yet to see any other podcasting company have.

[ElNacho]

is podcast pickle a company?

if so he's a lot more accesable. you dont see AC talking with everyone who talks to him and giving out his skype and stuff


(im guessing you do the first there pickle man. dont let me down!)

[Lizard King]

Jack, thanks a lot for posting this info. Rarely do I find a topic that causes me to read an entire thread like this, but you did it.
I'm checking this info out. Cdoelle, I appreciate you putting this out there. I'm signing up for updates.

BTW, Jack, I started checking out the Kickass Podcast. I enjoyed your little walk to pick up cigs. Fun stuff. I'm gonna check out more of you.



Jason

[etomorrow]

Any service for Podcasters is great.

You mean like www.podcastershomepage.com
*sorry, had to throw my own plug in there*

www.eaglespoop.com

[Lizard King]

Nothing like being shameless. Ha! Nice!
And nothing like being a copycat!

http://nobodies.libsyn.com/

:D

[pwfenton]

PW-

You just podcast? Your not, and haven't been, Mr. Curry's "helper" for a long, long time now? You say alot of good stuff, but I don't believe its based on the details we can all verifiy. Your not just "a podcaster", your a company man. You work for adam and ron and don't own anything but your domain do you? I don't believe you spent 100s of dollars per month on your show and I don't believe your "just a podcaster schtick".

Interesting tactic. Advance your point of view by fabricating the other side of an argument. You must be paying close attention to our president.

I never said, or implied anywhere, that I was just a podcaster. Yet you begin your post making that some sort of issue that you are calling me on and proving wrong. Fascinating.

Don't bother answering.....

Really good advice that I should follow. It's impossible to participate in a reasonable discussion with someone who wants to control both sides.

[monkey_one]

looks like pw got the last word.....no ooops I did :wink:

[pwfenton]

Let's say one company offered you 40%, another offered you 70%, and another offered you 75%. Assuming all had mature track records (which is not true of any of them today, but the world is still young) and could sell at equivalent rates, which offer would be most appealing to you?

Obviously with no other considerations the 75% deal would seem most attractive. But there are loads of other considerations. For one... 75% of what? I start out owning 100% of a liability.

I could ask the same question in reverse and hopefully you would get my point. Which would you rather have... 40% of $10,000 or 75% of $100?

Some realism needs to enter this picture. Let's say you own a record company... you've found a talented young musician that nobody knows, but that YOU think could be wildly successful, with a lot of investment. What cut would you be willing to give that musician? How long would you be willing to wait before making a return on your investment? Now on the other hand... you have an opportunity to sign Stevie Wonder. Do you think you might be satisfied with a much smaller piece of Stevie Wonder?

To me the real question is... would you rather have a small part of something, or a large part of nothing" Would you rather have a smaller part of something with a proven track record... or a larger part of something unproven and vaporous?

You are correct... it's about choices.

Frankly, I have no idea what Podshow offers podcasters to "sign-up". I have nothing to do with the business end of Podshow. I was hired by them to perform a very specific job, and that is to produce and deliver a 4 hour block of programming every weekday to Sirius Satellite Radio. It is quite a job. I put more hours in for this paycheck then I have ever put in before for any paycheck. I get a stub that shows how much money went to the government, how much money went to health care, and how much money is left for my wife to buy flowery drapes that I will hate... just like any other job.

When I got hired... my podcast wasn't even on the table. But after doing nothing but spending money on my podcast... I decided to approach Podshow. They made me an offer that I was quite happy with. I signed. I think it was a good idea. My only regret is that I've had less time to work on Digital Flotsam which isn't doing me or Podshow much good.

[monkey_one]

Hey pw you produce that ac show on sirius thats cool ive listned to it the other day going between buba and derek and romaine listnd to dawn and drew for the first time or the tail end of it.
isnt that funny Im a podcaster who heard D&D on sirius for the first time but ive been podcasting for almost 5 months LOL

[SFEley]

You also need to get a contact notarized, anyway, for it to be legal. So set an appointment with a notary, then ask if they can go over it with you. Some don't have time for it, but just find someone with time, and they will give it to you straight-up.
Hi Logan,

Most of your contract advice here is pretty good, I think, but the above makes me think that notaries in your state must have very different requirements than mine. The last two times I had things notarized, the notaries were a bank teller and the manager of a Kroger supermarket. Neither comes to mind as someone I'd want as a consultant on my career in new media.

On any major contract of even moderate complexity, get a lawyer. Even if you think you understand it all, lawyers in a particular industry should have a better idea what's common and acceptable and what isn't. In this case you probably want an entertainment lawyer, one with radio experience and/or one who works with musicians. (What I keep hearing of Podshow's terms really does make them sound like a record label to me.)

Will it cost serious money? Maybe. Many states have Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts organizations -- these are lawyers who will work pro bono (that means free) for artists who can't otherwise afford legal advice. You can contact your state's VLA to see if you qualify.

But even if you have to pay by the hour -- think about it. You're talking about a decision that could form and shape your career. With Podshow's contract you're talking about the next three years of your life. If you can't commit a couple hundred dollars at the beginning to make sure your interests are being taken care of -- well, who do you think is going to take care of you? If your podcasting career is important to you, give it the respect it deserves and do what it takes to get the advice you deserve.


You may not have his home number on speed dial, but you are still capable of contacting the main guy of PodShow, which is a level of accessability that I have yet to see any other podcasting company have.
This, too, I disagree with. If you think the heads of other podcasting companies are inaccessible, I have to wonder if you've tried. I've had late-night Skype sessions with just about everybody in LibSyn. The head of Feedburner reads the Yahoo! Podcasters group and responds regularly in their forum. At one point I had a problem with a particular e-mail I'd gotten from Podtrac, and fired off a snipish letter (rather too snipish, in hindsight) to them at 1 AM. Mark McCrery responded to it at 5:45 AM, apologizing for the mistake in the e-mail and asking to set up a phone call with me, which happened a few days later. And then of course you've got other podcasters with companies that matter in podcasting, like Tim Bourquin, Todd Cochrane, Doug Kaye, etc. I've never found any of them hard to communicate with.

I mean no slight against Curry, but if you seriously believe that one of his advantages is that he's easy to get ahold of, I have to ask, "Compared to whom?"

[monkey_one]

I Think Steve Has some good advice about protecting your self and your show.
But with a record contract are you not talking about actual studio time and the cost of
making so many copies or cds, getiing those copies into stores through were ever.
And making shure people know about it.
were if you sign on with a group like podshow I assume you already have buit some type of fanbase. And your show by nature of being a podcast is already produced published and for the most part syndicated world wide. Availble for mass consumpsion.......man thank you Al Gore for creating the Internet!

[SFEley]

Some realism needs to enter this picture. Let's say you own a record company... you've found a talented young musician that nobody knows, but that YOU think could be wildly successful, with a lot of investment. What cut would you be willing to give that musician? How long would you be willing to wait before making a return on your investment? Now on the other hand... you have an opportunity to sign Stevie Wonder. Do you think you might be satisfied with a much smaller piece of Stevie Wonder?
The trouble with this analogy, P.W., is that nobody here is in the position of the record company. We're all the artists. The record company's problems aren't our priorities; we have to look at our opportunities, and decide what's best for our own careers.

I also find it rather telling that you, too, believe that there are apt correspondences between Podshow and a record company. That is exactly one of the things that turns me off. Most people who make music have a pretty good consensus about how vile the music industry has become. It's way too early, and IMO we're way too forewarned, to allow the same mistakes to happen in podcasting.


To me the real question is... would you rather have a small part of something, or a large part of nothing" Would you rather have a smaller part of something with a proven track record... or a larger part of something unproven and vaporous?

It's a false dilemma, P.W. "Podshow" and "nothing" are not the entire set of options.

If you'd wanted to, and been willing to do certain work and make certain choices, it's not impossible that you could have made money on your show with no involvement from Podshow or any other service. I'm making significant money on mine, enough money that I'm starting to pay other staff and form my own business from it, with no help from anyone except my listeners -- and I'm not running ads. And I'm not the only one succeeding on my model.

Choosing not to make money is a fine choice too, and I'd never say a word against anyone for it. But if making money is what you want, Podshow's not the only way to do it.

[pwfenton]

I also find it rather telling that you, too, believe that there are apt correspondences between Podshow and a record company.

You are putting words in my mouth there. I chose a recording artist analogy because I could use a known celebrity as my example of a "sure thing" getting a better deal than an unknown. I don't know of many podcasting "sure things" yet that could make many contract demands like Stevie Wonder can.


Choosing not to make money is a fine choice too, and I'd never say a word against anyone for it. But if making money is what you want, Podshow's not the only way to do it.

I believe THAT is a false argument. Neither me nor anyone else has ever suggested that Podshow is the only choice. People have reacted as though someone has, but it's not the case. Do I think it's a good choice? Obviously... I chose them.

I think the reason that threads like these seem to focus on something being "wrong" with Podshow is that simply it's the biggest/easiest target. They are in the news every single day. They are prominent.

[AaronfromQC]

Yes they are in the news...like the time Adam was on Wired.com because he threw a temper tantrum and refused to be involved with the podcast expo. Yes that was a very accessible way of advertising your company.

I also remember the news story and this one became very big....when Adam changed Wikipedia to give himself more credit for podcasting.

I also remember reading in Bowling Monthly an incident he had in Reno where he stomped up and down demanding he must have the biggest balls in the entire place. Oh that Adam, what a kidder.

[pwfenton]

I also remember reading in Bowling Monthly an incident he had in Reno where he stomped up and down demanding he must have the biggest balls in the entire place. Oh that Adam, what a kidder.
I bowl every Wednesday in a league and although it's not considered exactly legal, having bigger balls is a definite advantage.

[kickasspodcast]

I never said, or implied anywhere, that I was just a podcaster.


Thank goodness I just podcast.

Sorry I got the wrong idea, it would be great if you answered any of the other challenges, like how were you spending 100s of dollars on bandwidth a month. At 10-15 megs a show how many listeners is 100s of dollars of bandwidth? And if this is true, with that many listeners, how in the world could you NOT make money for somebody.


I also find it rather telling that you, too, believe that there are apt correspondences between Podshow and a record company.


You are putting words in my mouth there.

Some realism needs to enter this picture. Let's say you own a record company... you've found a talented young musician that nobody knows, but that YOU think could be wildly successful, with a lot of investment. What cut would you be willing to give that musician? How long would you be willing to wait before making a return on your investment? Now on the other hand... you have an opportunity to sign Stevie Wonder. Do you think you might be satisfied with a much smaller piece of Stevie Wonder?

No, Steve wasn't putting words in your mouth, just like you did suggest earlier that you just podcast. Which is evidently not at all true either because you later bothered to clarify.

I was hired by them to perform a very specific job, and that is to produce and deliver a 4 hour block of programming every weekday to Sirius Satellite Radio.

That sounds like a cush job to me. Sorry but it does. <sarcasm>Wow, 4 whole hours of something you can prep way ahead of time. You can do what? 2-3 days of programming per work day? Wow, how do you manage? </sarcasm>

Again I remember you saying.....Thank goodness I just podcast.


All this is really interesting, I wanna say thanks to P.W. and AC for helping to bump this thread, with now over 1000 views I'm sure that lotsa people are actually beginning to realize that there are more options and that the reaction to choice is very telling.

I haven't always, or maybe often, agreed with SFEley, but Steve, you are right on the money throughout this thread, I cannot tell you how many times as I am reading your posts, its like... well, its exactly what someone who's as smart as you would say in response to this attitude. You especially got me when you said this.

I also find it rather telling that you, too, believe that there are apt correspondences between Podshow and a record company. That is exactly one of the things that turns me off. Most people who make music have a pretty good consensus about how vile the music industry has become. It's way too early, and IMO we're way too forewarned, to allow the same mistakes to happen in podcasting.

This is 100% true.

Logan, Steve is (imho) entirely right about contracts and lawyers, there is a reason legalese is used and, although aggrovating, it has its place and when reviewing a document written by lawyers, its really nice to have your own lawyer there to translate the thing.

To me the real question is... would you rather have a small part of something, or a large part of nothing" Would you rather have a smaller part of something with a proven track record... or a larger part of something unproven and vaporous?

What the hell are you talking about? You just don't seem to be able to make an analogy lately. How in the hell does this relate to podshow. Why, without ANY information, are you assuming that other projects/networks are unproven and vaporous and tanamount to what you call "nothing"? What has Podshow proven to anyone other than their employees? Seriously what proven track record are you claiming here?

You don't have any real information, nobody in this thread has given you enough information to react this way at all. How can you make these kinds of assertions without knowing any details? How can you make this assertion of "proven track record" without providing any details of that track record?

I'm not buying it, and you won't answer my questions, just like your boss Adam won't/can't answer my questions. Its aggrovating. Truly.

Jack


Well the day I decided to make my podcast a Podshow Podcast... I instantly started saving hundreds of dollars a month.

How??!?!??! Your show is 10-15 megs per show, its good, but its basically you telling stories (and often good ones) what are you spending all this money on? How in the heck did you save 100's of dollars a month? Seriously...

[ElNacho]

(http://libsyn.com/media/cdogg/Fresh_Media_Works_Promo02.mp3)

[mesoed]

*Assumption*
"You said this"
*Assumption*

*Assumption of a lie*

This is all we are hearing here. I'm usually not for confronting people directly, but Why are you attacking PW, Jack? From what I can see all your posts on this subject seem to be designed more to put down everything vaguely related to Podshow rather than something useful to the forum. If you are so against Podshow, why worry yourself about it? You obviouly aren't going to sign with them.

If you are seeking to "inform the readers" of apparent lies and unfair treatment by Podshow, you are going about it the wrong way. The first thing you need to do is stop with the assumptions and contact them DIRECTLY regarding your questions. The forum, though owned by Podshow, is not contacting them directly. If all you are going to do here is accuse and point fingers, do you think they are going to give you the whole story? Accusing closes the doors of information, it doesn't open them. Contact them, get the story, then make an opinion. And if they choose not to give you as much information as you would like don't assume they are up to something bad.

Rant done. Now back to regular complaining...

[podcastrant.com]

I would disagree about the easy breezy covergirlness of PDub's job. Think about it. It requires getting a group of podcasters to meet a daily deadline.

If it's daily I don't how it can be prepped way ahead of time. I think this comment was just taking the piss.

I agree with mesoed. Let's keep some weight to the barbs.

[pwfenton]

I'm not buying it, and you won't answer my questions, just like your boss Adam won't/can't answer my questions. Its aggrovating. Truly.

There is clearly no point in answering your questions. When I do, you tell me you don't believe my answers. What's the point then. Every answer brings more questions. You have no intention of accepting the answers if they don't fit your premise. It's just a game I ain't interested in playing with you.

[ElNacho]

did u not read all those contradictions you made...

[podcastingpixels.com]

You could look foolish when we open the PDN.

Alright, d*mnit! Speak english!

{sigh}

Someone - what's "PDN"?

I'm gonna guess, "Porn Distribution Network". Which in another name for the internet. Did I win?!

Prof Tom,

A thousand bows to you. You rule.

[justSue]

Why is this thread, which was originally supposed to be about promoting a new podcasting service, about PodShow? Its like the politician who tries to win supporters via a smear campaign. Really.

Oh, and while I've never met PW personally, I do know he works his *** off. Stop trying to discredit him please.

Free society - free market. Competition is healthy and I wish all people/companies forming a business and/or organization around this new medium the best of luck. The more there are, the better the chances of your grandmother and cousins knowing what the hell a podcast is and how to start listening.

Try talking about how this service is GOOD more than you talk about how the competition is BAD.

[cdoelle]

Why is this thread, which was originally supposed to be about promoting a new podcasting service, about PodShow? Its like the politician who tries to win supporters via a smear campaign. Really.


The thread was originally started by Jack to let people know that other options were available - the case in point was Fresh Media Works. Jack is not an employee or spokesman of Fresh Media Works and any perceived smear campaign has nothing to do with our network. I appreciate Jack's enthusiasm for the cool things we are doing, but wanted to make sure you know that this thread is in no way a promotion for Fresh Media Works.

We believe there is room for everyone in podcasting and our only interest is in working TOGETHER, not slamming anyone.

Sorry, it has become a bit of a sore point because I was told today by someone "I just read your thread slamming Podshow. You really stirred things up." It is not now, nor has it ever been our thread. In fact, it was the next day before I even saw it and chimed in.

Try talking about how this service is GOOD more than you talk about how the competition is BAD.

Nobody from Fresh Media Works has or will post anything bad about the competition. I appreciate the kind things said about our network and the rabid support it engenders, but that is not a slam on anyone else, just a testament to the power of inclusion over exclusion.

[etomorrow]

i'm sorry, i wasn't paying attention.

what happened?

[ElNacho]

eh, not much. move along folks

[kickasspodcast]

I get the idea that nobody has read anything anyone else is saying.

Its really aggrovating. I haven't slammed podshow in this thread. People need to read more carefully. I don't think anyone has slammed Podshow. The bigger question is, why has this thread been hijacked when it was just me trying to help get the word out about a project/network that I have learned a little about and considering lotsa people may sign with Podshow in the next week, I'd like to encourage people to hold off until they see what all their options are.

I didn't slam Podshow at all. Nobody is slamming Podshow in this thread. What happened, if you really read everything everybody wrote, well, why don't I just outline it for you, or semi-outline it ok? (If I omit your post it just means that it didn't really have anything to do with overall flow of this discussion, not that I don't think your the bomb)

1: I made an announcement and posted a promo,

2: Others became curious about the meaning of this something Fresh,

3: Some guy "Gil" who I've seen post alot on Curry's blog comes in and makes 1 false assertion after another, devoid of substance or reference.

4: A few people discuss more details of the network, with Gil still chiming in with pure irrelevance,

5: Mr. Adam Curry comes in and acts sorta dismissive, but manages to criticize Podtrac for no real reason, he also offers no proof of what he says, this is something he has done before (http://www.podcastpickle.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4676&st=60). Ironically this 1st (and maybe only) incident of slamming "Pod' anything was Mr. Curry himself when he belittled Podtrac (who throws great parties btw).

6: Some more people talk about the network and then discuss the PDN.

7: SFEley enters and starts making alot of sense, asking fair questions,

8: Mr. Adam Curry returns and is dismissive of SFEley, again not providing
any substance with this rebuttle, to which SFEley responds with more good insight.

9: Someone comments on the placeholder website, and Gil chimes in yet again, for the 3rd time, making absolutely no sense at all.

10: C-Dogg enters and clarifies things, and actually gives some information out,

11: People respond to that info with a short back and forth

12: I comment on the Curry mention of the PDN, with the URL that has already been registered, I also respond to Gil's cry of confusion, I try and say, its not confusing, just listen to the 30 second promo, I also poke fun at the sirius.podshow.com website, nortoriously abandoned despite having been somewhat heavily promoted on the DSC, this is in response to mild belittling of the placeholder for Something Fresh.

13: Several people talk more about something Fresh until with no problems at all, until Gil returns with a load of hate

Hijacking of other podcaster's trademarks?

Fresh Media Works: brought to you by the people who also brought you Enro

I won't even comment on this garbage, I'll just proceed ok?

14: PW comes back and when he should have admonished Gil for his out of line comments, he takes on SFEley with some very poor analogies,

15: C-Dogg confronts Gil with a healthy dose of levity and kindness.

16: I return, calling PW on some of the very bad examples and comparisons he gave, I also question him for the 1st time on some of his assertions, I also criticize Mr. Curry for being smug and dismissive and vague. And PW for not being a good diplomat, and getting defensive for no reason instead of just letting people do their thing. A long post, but I used quotes to show that I am actually responding to some of his assertions, giving him respect by doing this and even giving him personal accolades at the end of that post.

17: SFEley comes back and makes a ton of sense by disputing and objecting and commenting on quite a bit of what PW asserted, some of the same things I pointed out.

18: Aaron comes in being nice to podshow and plays more than fair, plus he gives some of his own ideas on networks and %'s and contracts, El Nacho, Logan and the Lizard King chime with relevant comments and peaceful discussion.

19: The ice breaks and a few people joke around, all in good fun, nothing to do with Podshow, Fresh, true PCA style irrelevance.

20: PW returns and for now, ignores all the great points SFEley made and comes after me, wildly comparing me to George Bush, and managing to ignore every fair question I asked.

21: PW comes back and now addresses what SFEley had to say, he doesn't really address it, he uses one thing SFEley said as a springboard to more bad analogies and manages now to criticize (SLAM) something Fresh, nevermind the fact that he has no information to do so, he merely dimisses it as "uproven", "nothing", "vaporous". He also says that we (in this discussion) aren't realistic, another insult to everyone else here.

22: Still nobody at this point has criticized Podshow, yet Curry gets to slam Podtrac and PW slams a devoloping network. Yet as I write this, people are saying this is a "thread slamming Podshow?" Hmm....

23: SFEley returns and makes more and more sense, responding fairly and politely, just like he pretty much always does. He makes too many good points to include here, just reread it.

24: PW returns and instantly says You are putting words in my mouth there. right off the bat and for some reason is still talking about Stevie Wonder. Then he says SFEley has a "false argument", while never bothering to respond to all the goodness that SFEley posted. He also manages to say how much he loves Podshow and mischaracterizes this thread as one that is Anti Podshow, then right at the end, sneaks in a small lie, but not his first.

The Small Lie:
They (Podshow) are in the news every single day.

No they aren't.

His 1st Small (sorta) Lie:

Well the day I decided to make my podcast a Podshow Podcast... I instantly started saving hundreds of dollars a month.

He's refused to explain this one repeatedly. Its clear he wasn't spending 100s of dollars a month on bandwidth for his 12 mb podcast. He isn't stupid.

25: Aaron comes back and drops a ton o reality speaking about how Mr. Adam Curry tends to make bad choices that make him (and by proxy those around him) look bad. He also does it with some dry wit at the end, because he's a nice guy.

26: PW returns, not to say anything other than something about balls, obviously not wanting to respond to Aarons good assertions about Mr. Curry's foulups.

27: I return and basically just use what PW said to illustrate his own contradictions, I also reflect on all of it, and what SFEley said becuase he was so very right. I also comment on Logan because I think you do need a lawyer when dealing with contracts. I also continue call PW out because he's basically bullshitting. PW isn't Podshow, he'll tell you that, questioning what someone says based on percieved validity or sincerity isn't slamming Podshow, its just questioning the person you are conversing with, still nobody has slammed Podshow yet, and I am at my last post, this morning, before work.

28: The KC weather guy and he's obviously not read everything written thus far, it couldn't be more obvious, because if he had, he would have commented on what SFEley said, or what Aaron said, maybe even what C-dogg said. He would have been on topic or actually posted on what everyone else had been talking about. Instead he admittedly goes on a rant about me and mischaracterizes this thread as attacking Podshow, now the 2nd person to suggest this (PW being the 1st) not that its true, but more people writing it have obvious got some people starting to believe it. KC weather guy attacks my motives and manages to lie about what I have said, basically saying Podshow lies to people (which I never said) and that they treat people unfairly. Another thing I never said.

29: Chad comes back, and I like Chad, but we often argue and its cool because we kiss and make up and its all gravy, I could never be mad at Chad. But Chad, think about it bro, you have tons of people sending you free content, your not doing a show live or anything and all the shows are already post produced. Yeah, you have to pick out the ones you want and sample them into some files, maybe one file, whatever, there is no real reason (I can think of, if there is please tell me) you can't produce several 4 hour chunks in one day. I don't think his job is easy, but seriously, it ain't that hard/difficult. I have listened to Podshow on sirius, sometimes, occasionally its good stuff. But I personally think they choose garbage to play and promote and that some of it is so bad, it makes podnoobs think that all podcasts suck. That's just my opinion of the content however.

30: PW returns, still refusing to answer any of my questions, he does this alot, at this point he is as dismissive and again, falsely mischaracterizes whats actually been said. As if answering peoples challenges wouldn't ultimately lead to greater understanding and improved communication. He says I am playing a game. :( I really am not.

31: El Nacho, forever wise beyond his years responds to PW with a single line

did u not read all those contradictions you made...

He did read them, he just won't acknowledge them because he's got too big of an ego or something I don't really know why.

32: Sue enters, another person who's clearly not read what has been written, she's far too smart to have read everything and actually compared this thread to a "smear campaign". She then either misunderstands or just mischaracterizess peoples treatment of PW, who's ignored most of the good/hard questions he's been asked, and most recently was dismissive to others and also managed to call something Fresh, 'unproven, vaporous, and nothing.' <sarcasm>It's great to see you hold him accountable for what he's written, I obviously don't get to, so well... thanks. </sarcasm>

33: Chris returns making it very clear, I am not a spokes person or directly affiliated with any network. I am not an employee or anything, he bends over backwards to show good faith in working with the community TOGETHER, just like he said. His post is 100% authentic C-Dogg, straight shooting, but diplomatic and inclusive, its his style (one that I respect and admire). In this last relevant post of this entire thread, he still doesn't slam Podshow.


Having just written that based on honest readings of what everyone posted, I still can't believe anyone could be so confused as to think this is about smearing podshow. It isn't. It can't be proven that it is, nobody can use quotes of things that were actually said, because nobody actually slammed podshow itself. The problem is when PW won't respond or even respect others enough to respond to very valid points and questions raised. Adam refuses to bend even a little bit, he's probably unsubscribing from this forum as we speak. I get the idea that people think I hate podshow, and if Ipromote something it must be anti podshow, I also think people can see me posting and think they know what I said and then slam me, without ever having taken the time to read what was said.

Unfortunately I don' t have an audio version of this, I wish I did, but I really did just go back and reread (for about the 2nd-3rd time btw). Alot of things were said, but this clearly isn't a thread slamming Podshow at all. It never was. I encourage everyone to re-read the thread, then read my summary because why even believe my interpretation, I'm totally comfortable with you reading what was actually written, I'm confident you will get the same idea I did.

But thanks to all who've participated and kept this thread up on top for the last 3-4 days. Its got people talking, there is a new network, something fresh is coming, that's what I am thinking about. I don't even have to consider podshow because my mind is dealing with other issues, lotsa good stuff is happening, I, we, others do not have to slam podshow. We have our own podcasts, projects and interests, that is what this thread was about.

:)

Thanks for reading, this has been a post by,

Jack

[SFEley]

Did I mention there are choices for podcasters seeking income?

I did? Okay. I'm done here, then. >8->

[cdoelle]

I love Jack! :)

[ElNacho]

I love Jack! :)

i concur

jack u are t3h uber l33t...er...u rok. ur the only person i no who wud take the time to do all that, goo job

[podcastrant.com]

**** son.

Ok. They play the same core of 4 main shows a day. So that means that they are sending him new content on a daily basis to go toward the next day. So he can't do multiple show blocks a day because they aren't recorded yet.

I was saying trying to get content from podcasters on a daily basis can be no small task.

Everything else you seem to have a handle on :wink:

**** that was a post.

[kinkysex]

I nominate Jack for "Post of the Year."

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll be d*mned if you don't say the F*CK out of it! :lol:

[AaronfromQC]

Ladies and gentleman, and Adam, give it up for THE LONGEST POST EVER!!!! WHOOOO HOOOOOO! Jack, get up here and say a few words my man, but not too many (audience laughs). No seriously folks, I knew Jack since he was a wee lad and we played touch football. He kept demanding to be Johnny Unitas. But he's got heart ladies and gentleman, a deep core that I umm......(crying uncontrollably now)....Jack will you marry me?

[ElNacho]

haha nice line there tom

its still january and already jack's a shoe in for post of the year. how bout we just end the voting now and award him his rooftop tile prize...in bulk...now so he dont gotta wait...

[kickasspodcast]

Ladies and gentleman, and Adam, give it up for THE LONGEST POST EVER!!!! WHOOOO HOOOOOO! Jack, get up here and say a few words my man, but not too many (audience laughs). No seriously folks, I knew Jack since he was a wee lad and we played touch football. He kept demanding to be Johnny Unitas. But he's got heart ladies and gentleman, a deep core that I umm......(crying uncontrollably now)....Jack will you marry me?

Hahah, such kind words from someone who really is the nicest podcaster I ever met. If you ever got mad at anything Aaron posted, listen to his show for 20 minutes, he and his wife are the nicest people I've really ever heard. In the genuine way too, its uncanny.

I do have to say, sadly that wasn't my longest post (http://podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7782&highlight=hermas&sid=80e946ea10375a939df700c33b2dc4a9) ever, I would love to be able to say that was at least my 2nd longest post (http://podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6545&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=b09e4390c85ab601cbdf7f1add276734), but its not. <shrugs> I can say that, those 2 longer posts, just like this one, are centered around issues I feel very strongly about. Well the longest was basically an attempt to stymie Goyfire. :oops: I am glad to see that not everyone believes I am playing some sort of game. I truly, to my core, care about Podcasting. I want everyone that "needs" their TV, to "need" podcasting. I certainly do, what can I do to teach others of its greatness and impact?

Off to listen to the new Good Beer Show, History According to Bob, Riding with the Window Down, Craft Beer Radio, Read everything on Scripting News, Check out Nate and Di's Forum Posts, then probably finish it up with todays Randi Rhodes, a mere 3 hour show without the commercials... love podcasts? Guilty.

But if your a sick puppy and wanna read a pretty kickass article Winer (http://scripting.wordpress.com/) writes about how to reform the VC industry, here is the link to that (http://scripting.wordpress.com/2006/01/28/how-to-reform-the-vc-industry-in-five-easy-steps/). Its pretty cool. Yes I realize shrinking text size doesn't make it a shorter post.

Now I'm gonna take some advice Chad gave me once before.
Jack,

Step away from the keyboard.

[WyethDigital]

Okay, maybe to wrap things up from a casual observer, not affiliated with any Podcast, Podcasting company, or marketing firm... I'm seeing a lot of words but not a lot of communication.

Observations about Jack's side of things:
• Jacks original post was not in itself a direct slam against Podshow, but it did have the air of a "dig." Especially since Jack alledgedly already has a rep for slamming Podshow.
• Nuance is lost in internet forums. Best just to spell it out right from the start instead of being subtle.
• I agree that you did not attack Podshow, Jack, but you did chide it a bit. However, you did attack PW. You basically said he was bullsh*tting us, you derided his work, and you told him not to bother responding. Then you complain that he hasn't responded.

Observations about PW's side:
• You do contradict yourself.
• Your first post, while not directly claiming to be a simple ol' Podcaster, gave that impression, and after having read your later history and involvement with Podshow , comes across as extremely disengenuous.
• Nuance is lost in internet forums. Best just to spell it out right from the start instead of being subtle.
• You are incorrect. As pointed out so well before, Investors do not give you a loan. It is not a debt.
• I didn't think you should respond to Jack, because he told you not to, but you also danced around other legitimate questions. As an example, your defense of your Stevie Wonder analogy was, in Jack's words, B.S.
• A talent agent spends time and money promoting an artist, which to me is more analagous to what PodShow does than Podshow is to a record label. And if an agent wants a larger percentage than what the artist gets, they'd better have a **** good reason in my eyes, or, frankly, I would shop around. But that's just my opinion.

My final impressions on this thread: Nuance is lost in internet forums. Best just to spell it out right from the start instead of being subtle. Like I already said, lot being said. Not a lot being learned.

Eric

[ElNacho]

Then you complain that he hasn't responded.

i think he was more complaining that, though he responded, he did not answer any questions


btw is there an easier way to enter those bullets than the character map?

[WyethDigital]

i think he was more complaining that, though he responded, he did not answer any questions

Oh, I realize that, but since I was ragging on the two guys about subtlety in forums, I figured it was fair game. Heh! Broke my own rule... ****! :oops:


btw is there an easier way to enter those bullets than the character map?
I'm on a Mac, so all I do is press the "option"+"8" key to get a "•"

Want to see a bunch of MacUsers drool over themselves trying to figure something out? (Except for the MacElite. If they don't know this, they should have their PowerMacs replaced with an E*Machine)

Check it! ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï£¿ï £¿ï£¿

Yeah, that's right! I went there! 

Okay... backl to the arguing! :D

[Slone]

Hey All!

Sad to see the Podcast community on a complete rampage in whom supports whom. We discovered we had a voice, we used it, and then many found they had a following, it drew on our personal resources. (...and Yes, Jack, for those of us with dedicated servers for example to pay for resources and bandwidth because our IP dropped us – it is possible to shell out several hundred bucks per month.) I shell out… $375 bucks for my server, which recently I’ve since found an external solution to reduce my increasing fees.

I don’t have a several thousand subscribers, but I can begin to imagine the personal expenses. So I relate why those put out a call for HELP.

So some signed to keep the art so many enjoy alive, Some faded, and Some (like me) just keep paying to keep a personal passion alive. This is the story of so many Podcasts…

It is no different then a struggling artists whom gets picked up by an investor, allowing the artist to continue to create the art we appreciate. That investor appreciates that art, but also needs to see a return. It’s only the respectful thing to do anyway… Offer some return for the favor.

Personal feelings getting in the way!
There are a lot of passionate people and that’s awesome! It is also dangerous. A proverb I heard once “Be quick to listen and slow to speak.” Could probably be the most important tool here. Now we all find ourselves becoming a divided group.

It was inevitable though, because I realize it’s human nature…

I see a common theme here…
I see under tones of Jealousy, which roots from feelings of inadequacy, self-doubt, low self esteem, lack of security. Funny thing is, these are the same symptoms Jealousy in LOVE. Not surprising since hey… So many here Love what they do! Podcast! Or.. At least I hope so ha!

I would however have to say lack of security being the number one cause here in most of these arguments.

*note: not pointing fingers, observations made only so don’t take it personally.

Security: If I sign with A, B, or C how do I know I made the right decision? How will others view me and what would I get myself into.

Self-doubt Because Podshow has not picked me up, maybe I’m not good enough? Maybe this is a clique I just don’t qualify to be welcomed? Why don’t I have enough listeners?

This is just to name a few points...

My point I’m trying to make…
We should all be happy with what makes us happy, after all it is all about the podcast right? In my opinion - Personal opinions should not have to be explained or sold, your integrity should speak for itself.

Scott

[kickasspodcast]

Scott,

Your a deep dude. I think you make some good points, but nobody is jealous of anyone else here. I think that people signed to contracts are enslaved. I think 3 years is an eternity in media, I am excited about a project/network that won't restrict people like that. Give people freedom and actually offer real inclusion to those in the network. There are lots of details that differenciate between business models and that is honestly, the heart of the matter, the reason I posted this thread in the 1st place. I think the options now aren't so hot, I hear of some new options that sound pretty sweet. Its either an arguement about what options are better, or its some lame bitchfest, where nobody reads what others post and they just think about what they are going to write while they read the last 1 or 2 posts.

And dear God, please PM me for a reasonable solution to your massive hosting dilema. I don't know what the problem is, but your getting robbed on your hosting, its not reasonable. Anyone can send out a terrabyte of data for under 50 bucks a month. You don't need a dedicated server at all.

I'll host all your downloads for 1 month for 5 bucks.


Wyeth,

I think you were more than fair, nuance is lost, i only went after PW because he won't respond to any pointed question, I don't know why but he wont.


This entire thread is about my excitement for this new network, in visualizing it, I really think it is something for everybody. And money doesn't have to be involved. That's a huge difference. I can't say anymore. Just watch the site like I will. To the Fresh Media folks who are reading, perhaps a temporary RSS feed could be set up to keep people abreast?

Jack

[Slone]

Deep? Dark winter months and a current temp of -2 in Alaska may make one sound deep I suppose. My response came from more listening than anything, which I almost didn't post.

As for hosting.. I'm cool for now. I choose to manage my own server after years of hosting experience. I'm pretty **** happy with my server! Just me and a few of my clients. Podcasting sent me into bandwidth issues...

I'm 'holding out' until all options are on the table before making anymore big moves where hosting is concerned - Unless a sudden interest in Alaska sends me through the roof ha! (Which reminds me - I'd like to see more attention turned to regional podcasts... but that is another topic for another day.)

Thanks for the extended offer though..
Scott

[GilPodcast]

Nice - gotta love the Alley. Wow, I wasn't aware that I was responsible for Enron and as far as hijacking trademarks, that was registered before the words were ever uttered together by anyone in Podshow.

Not very good detective work there. You have an awful lot of incorrect assumptions, charges, and inuendo for someone who created a podcast (with no episodes) about a private eye.

Off-base accusations: brought to you by a newbie podcaster who also brought you - uh, well... nothing. :)


C-Dogg

I've just uploaded my first podcast. It was in post productio yesterday. I speeded up the process just for your sake so I hope I can now comment here as a full member of the podcast community. :)

Look I'm not agains your plan. To be honest with you I liked your first explanation of the Fresh Media Works. I went to look at your website. You are a rancher. I connect with you just because of that fact alone.

Then Jack linked to the www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com site, which leads to your website. How is that possible. I've heard Curry talk about the "podcast delivery network" for so many months and here you registered the name. To me that doesn't sound like "rock and roll". It sounds like something a shyster from New York would do.

Look if you were the first to think of the name, you are right, but if you registered the name after Curry mentioned it, you are just degrading the "rock and roll" status of the Fresh Media Works network. Taking another podcaster's trademark is serious business. It makes your new venture sound shady. It's a marketing nightmare you could well do without.

I wish you the best with the FMW network. I might even check it out if Curry's "will the real Podcast Delivery Network please stand up" Podcast Delivery Network disappoints me.

Jack,

I saw your very long post ;) and decided to listen to your latest podcast while reading it. Great music, some of it podunsafe, like the Rolling Stones song. It took me 30 minutes to wade through all the "Gil did it" stuff. How am I responsible for any of this? I'm just a podcaster (with one show- bow to C-dogg) Trying to find out more info about these networks that I hope I could join. Look most of us here respect your opinion, maybe disagree with it, but we do know you are a dedicated independent podcaster. I'm asking you personally, why are you involved?

You are now boosting a new network of podcasters. The FMW is a company. With a boss, C-dogg. You are marketing here. You are trying to say join the FMW network, because C-dogg's is "rock and roll" and Adam Curry is "Corporate Rock".

I'm not the problem. All the marketing and image building here is. Keep up the good work, your great podcasts. I loved the one where you saw your wife off to work and went to the shop for cigarettes. It's still one of my favorites. :)

[cdoelle]

Gil, just when we were all peace and love, you start stirring the pot again... come on, man.

You managed to bash the fourth largest city in the US (Houston) and the largest (New York) now in two posts...

I listened to your podcast while reading your post too... it sounds like it is going to be a good show. I look forward to hearing more.

I'm a rancher? Where did you get that impression - not that it matters, but if it is the only thing that you connect with I am sorry, because while I grew up in the country, I live in my postage stamp lot like the rest of suburbia now.

What I want to know is why the labels? "brought to you by the folks that brought you Enron," "it sounds like something a New York shyster would do," "C-dogg's is rock and roll," "Adam Curry is Corporate Rock?"

I have been trying to state from the beginning that we are ALL podcasters. There seems to be a need to categorize and divide and it seems to come from the people with the least information. Adam Curry is not the Evil Empire - C-Dogg is not 'the Answer,' 'rock and roll,' 'responsible for Enron,' 'a New York shyster,' 'or even a rancher.' We are both podcasters and most of the participants in this thread are podcasters (you included.)

The real big boys are coming into our sandbox fast and they won't care a bit about anything in this thread... it reminds me of a quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin upon signing the Declaration of Independence...

" We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

[garybibb]

I'm a rancher? Where did you get that impression

Cdogg is no where near a rancher.

He is the biggest baddest podcasting lumberjack there is. That my friends, is a fact.

He has roughly 823842038572 shows, this new FRESH thing, and he takes care of his big blue ox. When does this man sleep?

Now I ask you, who's hand would you rather be in? Cdogg's or AC's ?

Personally I'd rather be in Jenna Jameson's hands but that's for another forum.

[podcastrant.com]

A proverb I heard once “Be quick to listen and slow to speak.” Could probably be the most important tool here.

After 29 years I still struggle with this. Call it passion, call it brazen ignorance. Every day I get better with biting my lip on the non-essentials.

I still slip once and awhile.

[WyethDigital]

Now I ask you, who's hand would you rather be in? Cdogg's or AC's ?

Personally I'd rather be in Jenna Jameson's hands but that's for another forum.

I think the point cdoelle was making is that you are all in each other's hands. Well, maybe not in Jenna's, but deffinitely each other's.

I guess I don't see the big deal (not being a Podcaster). Sign with who you want, or don't sign at all. I see no reason for the bad blood, and the short tempers.

And good on you, cdoelle, for the Ben Franklin quote! Fits prefectly!


Eric

[AaronfromQC]

Gil if you just put up your first podcast, the last thing you should be thinking about is what network to join. I learned over the course of 60 shows the way to make yourself successful is to put the best show you can out there, never sit around and think about making money just let it happen, be honest with yourself and your audience, make as many friends as you can in podcasting (you're gonna need them and they will need you), learn everything you can by listening to lots of different shows and give more to the community than you receive.

I have heard what Chris has planned and he has some great ideas in the works. You seemed to have learned a rule that many podcasters are trying and it simply doesn't work, drape yourself all over one podcaster and hope you get noticed. I don't care how good of friends you are with Adam or anyone else, if you don't have a decent show, your dreams of cashing in are done. Do this because you love it Gil, do it for passion and it won't matter what network you choose or chooses you.

I can't speak for Chris's choice of picking up the URL but wouldn't you guess that if you were to create something in your business like that, you'd lock up the URL first??? Adam learned that from MTV when he did it to them. That's right MTV didn't own MTV.com, Adam did and they had to buy it from him. Bet you didn't know that.

BTW, since you are new to podcasting, I'd like to encourage you to listen to a show that I and another podcaster created for beginning podcasters. You can check it out at PodcastMorons.com. Not a plug, just trying to help you out and I think that show could be helpful to you.

[starcom]

I always like business opportunities.

Bring it to the table. I can and will decide if it is my best interest. If it is, you'll have a new committed associate in your business.

If it isn't, we'll part as friends until another opportunity arrises that would bring us together.

I don't have a problem with 3 years....if the reward is great enough and I can live with the terms.

There's also no need of doing a shorter agreement if there is no benefit and only good intentions. I can't take idealism to the bank.

Competition is a good thing.

Bring it to the table.....let's talk business.

[GilPodcast]

I'm a rancher? Where did you get that impression

C-Dogg

When I went to your Podcast Delivery Network website I browsed around and saw these pics and descriptions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterdog/page5 I thought that was your ranch.

Thanks for the compliment regarding my podcast. :)

[cdoelle]

When I went to your Podcast Delivery Network website I browsed around and saw these pics and descriptions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterdog/page5 I thought that was your ranch.

Gotcha! Doelle Ranch is my brother's place (right next door to my parents house where I grew up.) Its not where I live now, but definitely where I plan on ending up...

(insert dramatic western score)

...give me forty or fifty acres, a few head of cattle, a good horse, a good dog, and high speed internet access and I am there. In the meantime, me and my good dog (Lou) will keep plugging away, fighting the good fight, and working toward that goal.

(hey, I should edit that into an intro for a "fighting the good fight" segment on my Riding with the window down... (http://www.ridingwiththewindowdown.com) show) :) I crack me up!

[mongrel]

Kinda seems like the British, French, Spanish, Dutch, and Portugese circa 1650 all fighting to see who can carve the biggest slice out of The New World if you ask me. Same paradigm, different day.

Different models of employee-owned companies and models of cooperative associations would lend themselves well to the podcasting community.

I think many different associations could flourish, and that it might make more logical sense in many ways. I very much doubt, for example, that far right, fundamentalist Christian podcasters will want to be part of the same organization that I am. It's not that I'm in any way some extreme opposite to them. I just imagine that associations of like-minded people and shows will do a better job securing predictable market shares and thus advertising.

Think of Home and Garden Network on television. Or the Food Network. Or Animal Planet. Advertisers know who they are reaching by virtue of the demographic viewership.

Say there are 50 podcasts about computers, well, why shouldn't the hosts/producers of the different shows get together, pool resources, form either a Limited Liability Partership or corporation (or even a 501 3c non-profit organization!) and go into business? You could then target your advertisers pretty easily. And if this network of podcasters did it right, there would be no need for 8 million dollars in start-up capital.

[podcastrant.com]

I agree mongrel and I think you'll see a lot of that this year.

[SFEley]

Say there are 50 podcasts about computers, well, why shouldn't the hosts/producers of the different shows get together, pool resources, form either a Limited Liability Partership or corporation (or even a 501 3c non-profit organization!) and go into business? You could then target your advertisers pretty easily. And if this network of podcasters did it right, there would be no need for 8 million dollars in start-up capital.
You mean a tech podcast network?

Hey! That would be cool (http://www.techpodcasts.com/).

[mongrel]

Say there are 50 podcasts about computers, well, why shouldn't the hosts/producers of the different shows get together, pool resources, form either a Limited Liability Partership or corporation (or even a 501 3c non-profit organization!) and go into business? (..........SNIP.........).
You mean a tech podcast network?

Hey! That would be cool (http://www.techpodcasts.com/).

Awesome. I hadn't visited that site before--it's going to be one of regular destinations from now on.

BUT...imagine if they were all employees/members of a non-profit, cooperative organization. The ability to take advantage of tax-exempt status, purchase supplies in bulk, get non-profit discounts, perhaps go in on a server together and stop dealing with hosting woes for good, and negotiate contracts not as individual podcasters, but as a collective.

Would it take effort, expertise, and high levels of cooperation? Sure it would. But I think that the first few groups that can pull it off will reap some major benefits.

I, personally, would like to see something along the lines of the public radio model, with "member stations" that are part of the whole. This would provide not only collective economic strength, but also political strength in the event that any anti-podcasting legislation makes its way into Congress.

[SFEley]

BUT...imagine if they were all employees/members of a non-profit, cooperative organization. The ability to take advantage of tax-exempt status, purchase supplies in bulk, get non-profit discounts, perhaps go in on a server together and stop dealing with hosting woes for good, and negotiate contracts not as individual podcasters, but as a collective.

I've looked into incorporating my podcast as a 501(c)(3) non-profit. For several months I was sure that was how we'd go. I recently decided it wasn't worth it. It's an expensive and time-consuming process, you need to give policy and strategy control to a board of directors (who can't be paid), "non-profit discounts" aren't as common as you'd think, and tax-exempt status doesn't apply to unrelated business income (such as advertising). Most important, you can't make a profit. Just think about that. Sure, you can pay yourself as staff, but that gets complicated if you also expect to be on your own board.

Now, a podcasters' collective or trade association could form as a 501(c)(6) -- not (c)(3) -- but the tax-exempt status wouldn't apply to the member podcasts, just to the trade association. And there is in fact at least one effort to form such a beast. More details once something's there to show, or you can PM me if you really want to be involved in the early tedious bits.

As for shared hosting? You could do that anyway. Just form a partnership. It's simple and requires hardly any paperwork.

[mongrel]

I've looked into incorporating my podcast as a 501(c)(3) non-profit. For several months I was sure that was how we'd go. I recently decided it wasn't worth it. It's an expensive and time-consuming process, you need to give policy and strategy control to a board of directors (who can't be paid), "non-profit discounts" aren't as common as you'd think, and tax-exempt status doesn't apply to unrelated business income (such as advertising). Most important, you can't make a profit. Just think about that. Sure, you can pay yourself as staff, but that gets complicated if you also expect to be on your own board.

Now, a podcasters' collective or trade association could form as a 501(c)(6) -- not (c)(3) -- but the tax-exempt status wouldn't apply to the member podcasts, just to the trade association. And there is in fact at least one effort to form such a beast. More details once something's there to show, or you can PM me if you really want to be involved in the early tedious bits.

As for shared hosting? You could do that anyway. Just form a partnership. It's simple and requires hardly any paperwork.

All this is true. But you can put your grandmothers on the board of directors. Non-profit discounts don't grow on trees, but there are MANY more of them than most people realize--even employees of many non-profits don't even ask. I've worked for non-profits before; it got to be the first question I asked when making inquiries of any kind for products and services. And, after reinvesting any income into the business and fair salaries for the employees, how much profit is any such organization really going to have?

BUT, I first suggested an LLC if you recall. Whatever type of organizational structure you're talking about, the point is that there is strength in numbers. AND when you have some legal framework to guide you, there is quite as much liklihood for disputes over who has made the largest investment/contibution to the network as there would be if it was just a bunch of freewheeling podcasting buddies who went in on some equipment and later had to make financial/ownership decisions that might tear the group apart.

Structure is Freedom

[WyethDigital]

BUT, I first suggested an LLC if you recall. Whatever type of organizational structure you're talking about, the point is that there is strength in numbers. AND when you have some legal framework to guide you, there is quite as much liklihood for disputes over who has made the largest investment/contibution to the network as there would be if it was just a bunch of freewheeling podcasting buddies who went in on some equipment and later had to make financial/ownership decisions that might tear the group apart.

Structure is Freedom

My company is an LLC, though it's not podcast related. There are several distinct advantages, and several disadvantages. So you should be aware what they are.

First, not all states recognize LLC's. What does that mean? You'll have to register it in a state that does. And of those that do, not all the rules are the same state-to-state (at least not when I set mine up. There are some web sites that help you set them up or offer advice. Just "Google" it.

An advantage to an LLC is that you enjoy a lot of the tax benefits of a corporation, without all the paperwork and/or oversight. In exchange for that, though, there are certain expectations of the partners and a limit on how much money the LLC can make before it has to be upgraded or dissolved into another form of company. Typically, the tax benefits of the LLC are divided amongst it's managing members, who are usually the ones that put most of the money and effort into the LLC (in my state, monetary investment is held to be more valuable than sweat equity because it is easier to quantify).

Expect to shell out money at start up for a lawyer to help you set up your Operating Agreement, and make sure everything's in writing!

Eric

[SFEley]

And, after reinvesting any income into the business and fair salaries for the employees, how much profit is any such organization really going to have?
That depends on your business plan. But the question could be flipped around: "If, after reinvesting any income into the business and fair salaries for the employees, you show very little profit, how important is it to make that small amount tax-exempt?"

All I can tell you is that I researched the possibility very seriously for my podcast. I got education from my local VLA (Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts), I met with an accountant, I did recruit a board of directors, I even had Articles of Incorporation written up and ready to send in to the state. I knew that Escape Pod could qualify as a 501(c)(3) because we had a literary purpose. (Many podcasts wouldn't qualify under one of the six approved purposes.) But the more I looked at the bureaucracy involved vs. the benefits, the less attractive it looked.

The real clincher for me was the concern, confirmed by my accountant, that as the organization grew big enough to warrant attention from the IRS, it would be less and less feasible for me to both be paid and retain control of my own podcast. I was happy with the idea of sharing some of the strategic planning of Escape Pod, but I will not slide into the back seat.

So we're forming an LLC instead.


BUT, I first suggested an LLC if you recall.
No, you didn't. You suggested a Limited Liability Partnership (LLP) or a corporation. You never mentioned an LLC. LLPs are highly limited in purpose and wouldn't be appropriate in this context. Corporations might, but have restrictive structures.

And when I pointed you at a small company that was doing much of what you described, you said "Now just imagine if they were non-profit!" I wasn't digressing from your point; I was responding directly to what you said.


Whatever type of organizational structure you're talking about, the point is that there is strength in numbers. AND when you have some legal framework to guide you, there is quite as much liklihood for disputes over who has made the largest investment/contibution to the network as there would be if it was just a bunch of freewheeling podcasting buddies who went in on some equipment and later had to make financial/ownership decisions that might tear the group apart.

Yes. That's why I said "partnership." That is a legal structure, you know. It's defined by a partnership agreement. For complex revenue-sharing issues you'd want something more robust and with less liability, but for simply sharing a server or something it's all you need.


Structure is Freedom
Structure is also a pain in the ***. The trick is to find the balance: what degree of pain is your *** willing to tolerate for what degree of freedom?

And non-profits? Not very free at all. I do know what I'm talking about here.

[kickasspodcast]

Note: This is a friendly harmless post, just answering some questions, not meant to cause any arguments with anyone, don't worry.

It was in post productio yesterday. I speeded up the process just for your sake so I hope I can now comment here as a full member of the podcast community. :)

I think it depends on how you make your case, it doesn't really even matter (to me) if you are a podcaster or not. You are welcome to comment here as a listener, podcaster, ur just some guy with an opinion. That is a very good thing. Thanks Ferf for creating this venue.

Then Jack linked to the www.podcastdeliverynetwork.com site, which leads to your website. How is that possible. I've heard Curry talk about the "podcast delivery network" for so many months and here you registered the name. To me that doesn't sound like "rock and roll". It sounds like something a shyster from New York would do.

No it doesn't. Its typcial Adam Curry. Talk about what you want to do, maybe even have a good idea, but never bother to do the dirty work. There are no copyright issues involved at all. If I mention the Brotherhood of the Waterproof Pants repeatedly, it doesn't mean someone else can't found said brotherhood before I get around to spending 5 dollars on a website. The fact that Curry didn't register Podcast Delivery Network before he even mentioned it once (knowing full well the scope of his audience) is illustitive of bad planning, perhaps laziness. Until you do something, talking about it gives you no rights of ownership.

Look if you were the first to think of the name, you are right, but if you registered the name after Curry mentioned it, you are just degrading the "rock and roll" status of the Fresh Media Works network. Taking another podcaster's trademark is serious business. It makes your new venture sound shady. It's a marketing nightmare you could well do without.

Wrong. Nobody can prove they were the "first to think of a name". That is why this isn't the burdon set in matters of arbitration. I'm pretty sure the Podcast Delivery Network has nothing to do with Fresh Media Works. It just links to Chris's site. He probably found out that Curry/Podshow actually linked to the site without checking to see if they owned/maintained the site. The site, as el nacho pointed out, was purchased in November. The main thing is that you realize that that small issue has nothing really to do with Fresh Media.

I wish you the best with the FMW network. I might even check it out if Curry's "will the real Podcast Delivery Network please stand up" Podcast Delivery Network disappoints me.

OK, WTF is the Podcast Delivery Network anyways, what did Curry say it was. I don't listen to his show so what do you think it is/supposed to be/ going to be. It sounds kinda like some vague fluff concept, but I have no idea what you reference as a matter of concept.

Jack,

I saw your very long post ;) and decided to listen to your latest podcast while reading it.


Thanks for reading, I know I often type/say too much. Seriously man, thanks.

Great music, some of it podunsafe, like the Rolling Stones song.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it. Yes, that Stones cover is anything but Podsafe. Its Trade Safe or Trade-friendly (http://wiki2.etree.org/index.php?page=TradeFriendly). An issue I have raised before is a matter of informing people. I think alot of people truly believe that you can only play Podsafe Music on your podcast. This is kinda true, but not really, certainly its incorrect enough as to lead to lots of confusion. In fact, you can play any music that you are allowed to play based on the stipulations of the copyright holders. You won't hear Mr. Curry steering people to other sources of music other than the PMN, because he owns the PMN and clearly wants to morph that quite a bit and include mp3 sales. Of course the PMN and thus Curry get a cut of each sale, so it makes sense he do a big push to get everyone on the "Podsafe" train.

It took me 30 minutes to wade through all the "Gil did it" stuff. How am I responsible for any of this? I'm just a podcaster (with one show- bow to C-dogg) Trying to find out more info about these networks that I hope I could join

You aren't at fault for anything, conversations go to hell pretty quickly with the absense of nuance and inflection, I hold nothing at all against you Gil, I may disagree with you on this 1 thing but who cares? ;) I have no doubts that you will be welcome to explore and be a part of Fresh Media, I also have a strong hunch that you will retain your own ability to own your product, I would be very suprised to see any ammount of exclusivity in this, I could be wrong, its just speculation, but Aaron was right, your way too new to this to even think about networks. By the time you hit 20 shows, you'll be luckier than most to have several options, that is the 1 and only reason I posted this thread in the 1st place, to let others know of the options out there.

Look most of us here respect your opinion, maybe disagree with it, but we do know you are a dedicated independent podcaster. I'm asking you personally, why are you involved?
I'm not really involved, I don't know anything to be involved in yet. I won't play semantics with you though right? I mean I obviously support this effort. That is simple, the people behind it are good, honest, real, respectable people. All my experiences with these same people lead me to have high hopes and lend any support I can.

You are now boosting a new network of podcasters. The FMW is a company. With a boss, C-dogg. You are marketing here. You are trying to say join the FMW network, because C-dogg's is "rock and roll" and Adam Curry is "Corporate Rock".
Your making a huge assumption. Your assuming that the FMW will be a company like Podshow, owned by a couple guys who rule from the top down, (however inclusive they maybe, don't wanna raise hell, its just the explanation). Its a network. Think about what that means, a network. You shouldn't assume that it won't be cooperative and colaborative. No details have been released, I don't really know, nor have I posted any details that would let you assume that you can put this Network in a box and say it has 1 head, 2 arms etc.. its something FRESH, remember, totally unlike anything else in Podcasting, that is, to answer your 1st question, exactly why I am involved. I eat, sleep, and drink podcasting, and this is the only time i've ever heard of something like this before! Very exciting.

I'm not the problem. All the marketing and image building here is. Keep up the good work, your great podcasts. I loved the one where you saw your wife off to work and went to the shop for cigarettes. It's still one of my favorites. :)

All in all, I think your a pretty good dude Gil, its funny your take on this is certainly original, it helps when I add your perspective, you know, you really never know what everybody will think, so thanks for your willingness to be diplomatic and respectful, I've downloaded your show and will listen to it tonight.

After nearly a week and well over 2000 page views, I'm pretty certain the whole Podosphere is talking. From meeting rooms in Podshow HQ in San Fran, to Skype conversations from one coast to another, cell phone calls between people who watch and listen to as much as they manage, people are talking, that is exactly what I wanted to have happen. Thanks to EVERYONE for this.

I had a long talk with a very, very good person the other day. He mentioned that he too had seen this news of a new network, and he thought it was good because now there are options, and it will encourage other upstarts to enable more options. All stemming from independent podcasters, all the networks really do have to work together and stop this infighting, there are some big players coming down the pipe, they will crush us all if we don't agree on enough to work together at least some of the time.

And Steve Eley, you rock the house man, I'm not messing with you anymore dude, seriously hats off to you in this thread.

To all others thanks for reading,

Jack

[mongrel]

And non-profits? Not very free at all. I do know what I'm talking about here.

Hey. I'm glad you know what you're talking about. I'm glad that you're willing to split hairs because I typed Partnership when I meant Corporation (after having read the word "partnership 20 times today). If you can't tell, I'm in the "throw out some ideas" zone, not the "I've already had every word vetted by an expert panel of lawyers, accountants, and High Priests of Pomposity" kind of zone.

And I'm especially glad to be exiting this hostile, bilious thread. Thanks for your feedback. Leave your message at the "Bleep."

[kickasspodcast]

And I'm especially glad to be exiting this hostile, bilious thread. Thanks for your feedback. Leave your message at the "Bleep."


:(

[SFEley]

Hey. I'm glad you know what you're talking about. I'm glad that you're willing to split hairs because I typed Partnership when I meant Corporation (after having read the word "partnership 20 times today). If you can't tell, I'm in the "throw out some ideas" zone, not the "I've already had every word vetted by an expert panel of lawyers, accountants, and High Priests of Pomposity" kind of zone.
And I responded to your ideas. I shared my experiences; I clarified some ambiguities; I offered opinions. None of it was meant as a personal put-down. We're all in this to share knowledge. If you view commentary or development upon your ideas as a hostile act... Well, the most polite thing I can say in response to that is "Good luck to you."

Once again, there is an active (well, okay, intermittently active -- but sincere!) effort underway to implement at least one nuance of one of your ideas. If you're interested in knowing more about it, just PM me. If not, best wishes, and remember that the High Priests you mention can dispense holy water, which is useful against the lawyers.

[GilPodcast]

C-Dogg, Jack, Al Nacho,

Your Fresh media Works promo is getting airplay. On Curry's http://dailysourcecode.com!!!!!

:lol:

You see Jack, Adam in not evil. He's not after Podosphere domination afterall. He's actually a cool guy. :)

[Steve Pinder]

Adam has never played one of my promos, but he always plays my audio messages, and has answered emails. He is a cool guy, and is always willing to help a fellow podcaster as long as they aren't looking for a hand out. If he sees you bustin your ***, he'll help.


Steve Pinder
www.karatekast.com

[Kell]

I was the one that wanted to start podcasting and my hubs went along to appease me. Podcasting has become a hobby we both enjoy. Does it get any better? I'm honestly open to any venue that would allow me to do what I love get paid for it. In the end I'm doing this yes because I love it, and in the end it would be an added bonus to be able to quite my day job or even take a leave of absence and get to spend more time with my kids.

The more opprotunities for podcaster the better. A 3 year contract might be good for some and not for others so having choices is great.

Peace Out
~Kelli~

[el]

I'm sure Fresh won't be the last network to promise something different to Podshow. Will they deliver? I'm waiting to see.

[guscave]

I’ve been reading this thread for 2 days now and soaking in all the different opinions, rants and raves, so I thought I'd throw in my 2cents worth.

From what I can tell so far, all we have here are assumptions. We assume that PDN’s deal is an exclusive 3 year, 40% deal because someone told someone else it was so. I don’t think anyone here (so far) has either seen the actual contract or knows if that is an absolute “take it or leave it” kind of deal. One the same token the new “Fresh Media Works” offer is also an assumption as no one has explained in detail what their offer is, and of course no one knows how much (if any) money will be made with them.

Since none of these two “options” are up & running yet, how can any of us say that one is better (or going to be better) than the other.

Yes, I’m interested in monetizing my podcast, because I too would like to make money doing what I already love doing as a hobby. But until the actual facts are out there, until someone puts a contract in my hands for me to determine for myself if it’s worth it or not, I’m keeping all options open and condemning none. :wink:

[SFEley]

The more opprotunities for podcaster the better. A 3 year contract might be good for some and not for others so having choices is great.

......No.

I've got to say it. I know we want to be warm and fuzzy and snuggle all the podcasting services into one big group hug because God loves them all, but I cannot go along with this.

There is no one for whom a three-year exclusive contract is the right answer. Period. And I will tell you why. It's because there are three ways a podcast can go. (And yes, I'm specifically going to talk about Podshow below, because they're the only ones who use such a contract in their existing relationships.)


The first (and, let's be blunt, the most common) is that your podcast won't make it three years. You'll fail to gain audience, you'll get busy with other priorities, you'll just plain get bored. I would put good money down that 90% of the active podcasts listed in this directory today will not be putting out episodes a year from now, much less three years. In this case the contract will have done you no good. Maybe you got some cheeseburger money from it on the way down; most likely you didn't.

But it gets worse than that for the ex-podcaster. Let's say you come up with a totally different, absolutely brilliant idea in 2008 and want to give the podcasting thing another try. Let's say that by then there are dozens of established, mature ways to get a podcast out there, promoted, and making money. Let's say that some of them are better than Podshow. A person who's never podcasted before would get their pick of those services and can choose the one most suited to the new idea. But you? You don't get a choice to make a fresh start, because you're bound to Podshow, for better or for worse, on any podcast content you create, until 2009. That puts you at a solid disadvantage compared to a blank-slate newcomer.


The second way a podcast can go is that it can coast. You don't quit, you don't get bored, your content doesn't get old. You probably have slow but steady growth. You like what you're doing and your audience likes it.

Does Podshow like it? Well, maybe. If someone higher up loves your show, they may push it and break you out of that "coast" stage into category three, below. But what if they don't? Do you really think they're going to promote you? Give you the sweetest ad deals? Why? They already know you can't leave them. You're part of their stable now, just one more number on a brag sheet. Once they've won your signature on the bottom line, they never have to provide you more than their barest minimal service ever again. It's possible some other partner might like you more and offer you the breakout deal, but you can't take it. The main value Podshow gets out of you at this point is the ability to prevent you from helping one of their competitors succeed.

If you don't believe this is possible, look at some of the shows signed with Podshow today (assuming you can find their listing) and tell me that Podshow has them all on the fast road to success. This is how record companies work. If you aren't one of their stars, you get almost nothing out of them. I could be wrong, of course... But if I'm right, there's nothing you can do about it. You're locked in.


The third possibility is the exciting one: maybe you're the star. You're one of ten or twelve top shows, the darlings, the ones named on the press release when they announce their deal with Starbucks. You've got many thousands of listeners and a cool 40% of the five-figure ad deal they sign with your show's name at the top. Podshow helped get you where you are today!

Or did they? What was it, really, that made you a star? Was it Adam Curry telling everyone how great you are? Getting into the Sirius four-hour block? Or was it the word-of-mouth that pushed you forward, from an excited fan base? Did the other things happen because you were already becoming stars? However it happened, you clearly had to have your own real talent, and you probably worked your butt off to get noticed before anyone got around to noticing you.

But whatever. Now you're noticed. You have street value. People want you on their team; everybody wants you to be part of the big deals they're making. Maybe Podtrac has an incredible contract that you could have been a part of at 75%. Maybe Yahoo! wants you to headline for them at a six-figure salary. Does that sound like fun? ...Too bad you can't do it. Your future turned out to be incredible, but you signed it away at a bargain price, back when you were starting out. You may be worth a million bucks, but you're earning less than half of what you're worth -- and you will never do better.


So those are the three options. You could do poorly, and your contract closes doors on starting fresh; you could do average, and your contract closes doors on getting a push; you could do well, and your contract closes doors on achieving your true value. No matter where you go, you can't quite get there, because you're attached to Podshow with a bungee cord, and the farther you get the harder it pulls you back.

Without the contract? Well, their terms might suck or they might be the best in the business, but at least you'd have freedom of choice. As long as they're helping you, you stay with them, and everybody wins. The moment they stop helping you, you're free to move elsewhere. If that possibility exists, they have a real incentive to keep you happy. Without the possibility, they just don't have to care.


One thing is always true of every business partnership: you're in it mostly for yourself, and your partners are in it mostly for themselves. Podshow, Podtrac, Kiptronic, whomever, may be on your side, for a little while or a long while, but their interests are not yours. A long-term contract puts yours partner's interests ahead of yours, and that's a fundamental imbalance that I find ethically wrong. You have to help them, but they help you only at their whim. You can wish your partners well and want to help them, certainly, but you have to look out for yourself first -- because if you don't, it's certain that nobody else will.


And that, in closing, why Podshow's three-year contract is fundamentally wrong to me, and why I cannot sing Kumbayah with the rest of you.

Have Fun.

[SFEley]

From what I can tell so far, all we have here are assumptions. We assume that PDN’s deal is an exclusive 3 year, 40% deal because someone told someone else it was so.
That's not the reason it's assumed. It's assumed because an exclusive 3 year, 40% deal is the contract currently in effect for some or most Podshow members.

I have it on good authority that Podshow's offered contract used to be worse than that. And yes, it's certainly possible that PDN's offered terms will be much better. But this isn't just about PDN to me. It's about a particular attitude toward podcasting: one that treats podcasters as properties, as bits of artistic real estate, the way most record labels treat musicians. I despise that attitude. It's too late for the established music industry, and their edifice is already showing cracks. I want this edifice in podcasting to never be built at all. I want to encourage everyone to turn down long-term contracts that undervalue them and rob them of choices as they grow.

The existence of such contracts is not theoretical; it's already happened. If it doesn't happen with PDN, that's fantastic. But since PDN is coming from the same company, I don't see any downside in making them aware early on that we will find certain conditions unacceptable.

[jawbone]

Wow.

Now, THAT is the best post I've read in a long long while.

Excellent points, SF.

On edit: I meant the one before the last one. :)

[guscave]

But this isn't just about PDN to me. It's about a particular attitude toward podcasting: one that treats podcasters as properties, as bits of artistic real estate, the way most record labels treat musicians. I despise that attitude. It's too late for the established music industry, and their edifice is already showing cracks. I want this edifice in podcasting to never be built at all. I want to encourage everyone to turn down long-term contracts that undervalue them and rob them of choices as they grow.

The existence of such contracts is not theoretical; it's already happened. If it doesn't happen with PDN, that's fantastic. But since PDN is coming from the same company, I don't see any downside in making them aware early on that we will find certain conditions unacceptable[/b].

If in fact that is how the new contracts will be offered, you make a very good point in that we should let PDN (or any other network) know what we would consider acceptable or not.

As for weather a company treats an art form with artistic respect or artistic real estate, I can tell you from experience it all depends from what end you're looking at it from.

I've worked in the music business for over 25 years (both major and indies) and I've always seen that once a significant amount of money is being trotted around, that's when the lines are drawn seperating art and commerce. The Artist will always say that the entrepreneur has no artistic vision, while the entrepreneur will say the Artist doesn't know how business is run. And in many cases, later on the Artist becomes the entrepreneur with his own Artists *itching about his lack of Artistic respect.

I expect the same lines to be drawn within the podcast arena once signifcant amounts of money starts to appear. But you're right in that we all at least have the pending failure of the music industry as a reference point to what we should avoid.

Sorry if I went a bit off topic... :wink:

[Kell]

I totally see what your saying and Kumbayah is not what I'm singing.
Every company is the same, and this is not different. I started at my company on the production floor. I dropped out of college because I knew that if I kept this job I would be able to afford to actually pay for college. Maybe I sold myself short. That was the decision I made at the time. I made it work for me. I worked hard, I made myself known I moved up in the company without the Bachelors degree they asked for. Everyone is just a number no matter where you work, you can all be replaced within a few weeks time.
Yes people might miss out on things with a three year contract, but that's life. You can wait around for the deal of the century but that's just it you might just be waiting around. Some people grabbed the bull by the horns and made a decision do they regret it maybe. They are the pioneers that lead the way and we can learn from that. In all honesty if I could pay my bills with what they paid me I would sacrifice for the three years, because I would be able to have the time with my kids. For me that's the bottom line, I would sell my soul for time with my kids.

I know you are right the best intrest of the podcaster what needs to be looked out for. I tend to get blinders on my dream is to do something I love and be there for my kids.

Maybe there should be a union. That helps protect the rights of podcasters. I feel ackward talking to much about any of this stuff because I don't feel I'm as knowledgable as the rest of you when it comes to the in & outs of podcasting, or contracts. So please don't take what I say as fighting words, I'm not hear to fight I just want to be excited that there are going to be opprotunities out there. I am taking everything you said and logging it in my head you are very smart, and seem to know a whole lot about contracts.

**Again let me say - I don't sing Kumbayah :)



Peace Out
~Kelli~

[SFEley]

I've worked in the music business for over 25 years (both major and indies) and I've always seen that once a significant amount of money is being trotted around, that's when the lines are drawn seperating art and commerce. The Artist will always say that the entrepreneur has no artistic vision, while the entrepreneur will say the Artist doesn't know how business is run. And in many cases, later on the Artist becomes the entrepreneur with his own Artists *itching about his lack of Artistic respect.
This is an interesting point, and although I don't have your depth of experience, it sounds right to me. What I would say in response is that the Entrepeneur is only ethically wrong if he begins to exploit the Artist in ways that he would have found unacceptable if he were still in his old shoes.

To me, good business comes down to a single rule that an incredibly smart man made popular a very long time ago:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I would dearly love it if someone got a straight answer from Adam Curry about whether he himself would have been willing to sign any random one of the Podshow contracts that have been offered to podcasters since last summer. I doubt he'd answer that, of course. But just making him think about the question could only do good in the world.

[kickasspodcast]

I'd like to thank Adam Curry for playing the Fresh Media Promo on the DSC today. This little act of reaching out is signifigant to me, and I won't discount or discredit this. Thank you, and I know that regardless of whatever differences we (you and I have), we can agree on enough to help promote Podcasting, its clear we both love it. The reasons are shared and unique, but we both (and all) stand to gain (if nothing else listeners) by ultimately working together, sometimes, on some things.

Seriously though Adam, thanks man, I'll criticize yes, but I am not too proud to say thank you when its deserved.


Jack
(blurry new avatar, grr to the 8k file limit eep!)

[podcastrant.com]

Want to hear an interview with Chris Doelle about Fresh Media and the Something Fresh that's coming? Check out the latest Unedited: The Extensively Edited Podcast For Podcasters.

http://www.podcastrant.com/unedited

[McLean]

"But a voice from the sky is what you heard, Dr. Araway."

I love quoting "Contact", even when it has no real purpose.

I'd like to think that whatever comes along in podcasting's future, we're all mature and knowlegeable enough to handle it.

'Nuff said.

[GilPodcast]

The more opprotunities for podcaster the better. A 3 year contract might be good for some and not for others so having choices is great.

......No.

Kell,

I agree with you. All our situations are different. Our purposes for podcasting are different. So if you could get 40% and a three year contact plus a monthly wage. Why not if that is what you are interested in. (I'm not talking about the Podshow contract here. I have no idea about that. Curry has always said that all the contracts were tailored to the individual podcasters that joined the Podsqaud. Those contracts are again different from the PDN contracts, which nobody knows anything about).

So if what you hope is that you could substitute your job for the job of podcaster to be with your kids and this involved signing a 3 year contract and getting 40% and a wage allowing you to stay home. If that is important to you and not making a million from your podcast, then I would say do what's right for you.

[SFEley]

So if what you hope is that you could substitute your job for the job of podcaster to be with your kids and this involved signing a 3 year contract and getting 40% and a wage allowing you to stay home. If that is important to you and not making a million from your podcast, then I would say do what's right for you.
I stand by my words, Gil. If you're talented enough and your show is popular enough that Podshow can sustainably give you a living wage at 40% of your show's value, then you're good enough to get a better deal for more of your show's value.

At the very least you should be placing enough value in your own potential to keep that possibility open. This is especially important if making a living from your podcast is something you aspire to.

[mpeacock]

I'm tempted to quote the "Sound and Fury" soliloquy from Macbeth just to stir things up again :lol:

In any emerging (and many mature) industries, information is spotty at best, and more information means more leverage. Podcasting is one of those emerging industries. In these forums, most people (but certainly not all) have tended to hold their subscriber number close to their chest and have been loathe to share the financial details of any sponsorship/ advertising deals they've been able to strike. It's tough to judge if the Podcast or Podtrac or RadioTail deal is right for you if you don't have any information on the alternatives.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and people hate a lack of information even more. In the absence of information, people will do their best to create it through speculation. This isn't bad or wrong; it's a rational response to a real business need. This isn't isolated to podcasting -- it happens in every industry without clearly legible price stickers.

I appreciate the folks who are passing along information on T&Cs that they've seen. It helps the rest of us make better decisions by making more informed decisions. If Podshow, Fresh Media, Podtrac, or Joe's Crab Shack and Podcasting Emporium (stop -- I've already registered the URL) don't care for community speculation on their pricing structures or if they believe the speculation is incorrect, they can stop it immediately by posting their T&C's on their web site.

I don't believe that one revenue model is a priori better or less evil than another. Having different models is great because not every podcaster will have the same objectives or end goals. Indeed, a single podcaster might not have the same objectives or end goals over a given length of time.

I do believe, however, that folks from Podshow sometimes protest too much. They have sought and attained a leadership position in this emerging industry and, like any leading company in any industry, have a greater responsibility to guide it and help it mature. Helping to establish pricing structures by publishing their contract terms would be one way of showing leadership. Eliminating Adam Curry's pre-announcements on the DSC (e.g., the Undition) without follow-through would be another. I am not jealous of Podshow or slamming them in any way. I am just trying to provide some constructive suggestions on how they can help our industry move forward and mature.

This has been one of the most interesting threads on this forum in the past month. 80% of the posts have been interesting and informative (a pretty good signal/noise ratio when compared to other forums). I also think the emotion in this thread is good -- people feel ownership for this industry. I look forward to more discussion.

[markwright]

My response came from more listening than anything, which I almost didn't post.