Is it selling out?

[Marilynfan]

I'm having a bit of a dilemma. Just not sure how I feel about mainstream sponsors advertising in podcasts. I guess if you want to make some money that is the way to go. For example, everytime I hear that earthlink spot on DSC it sticks out like a sore thumb. I can't imagine what it would be like if all the independent podcasts had stuff like that in their podcasts.

The reason I was drawn to podcasting was because anyone could do it. I remember when iTunes launched and as the corporate podcasts began to take over it really annoyed me.

I guess I feel like if I put advertising on my podcast I would be selling out to the "indie" concept. But on the other hand, I am like every other office employee living in a cub...I would love to quit my day job.

BTW, has anyone else been contacted by Podtrac? And I don't mean a generic email to sign-up but a personalized request for your download stats because they have a sponsor who wants to advertise on your show.

[kinkysex]

I have a rule: If it feels like you are selling out, even a little bit, then you are sold out.

I know it's a bit extreme, but I sleep well at night. That's a lie, I don't sleep. But I could if I didn't have insomnia... oh, hell, you know what I'm getting at.

El Nacho, get in here and explain what I mean!

[AaronfromQC]

I think the answer to your question is "depends"...If you're just sticking ads in your show and you don't really care about the product then it's a bad idea. If it's a product you believe in and you can get paid for it, then I don't see a huge problem with that. My issue is with the move to just shove ads into podcasts with no targeting and the podcaster basically becomes a morning radio dj. Diggnation is a good example of how I think it should be done. Very brief mention in the beginning and a brief mention towards the end. Very unintrusive and it's an ad that's relavent to the audience listening. A great example of what not to do is right at the top of this page....Downlaod w/Heather and Jonelle......

[McLean]

Well, selling out is pretty extreme. I think we're all sort of trying to figure out the boundries of what's acceptable and what's not. It's an evolving line.

That being said, the first time I hear a Nike commercial on a podcast, I'll jump out a 1-story window.

-McLean

[jeffoest]

I think the term 'selling out' means that someone else is putting terms on the content that you are providing OR you are putting up content to please others at the expense of pleasing yourself.

Only you can be the judge of those things.

For 2006, I would think the bigger question to answer is if you put advertisements in your content, would it turn off subscribers or would they really care that much. You might want to experiment with it this year and get a better handle on your subscriber dynamics. No third-party company is going to be able to tell you that.

My opinion: I DO think the future of podcasting ads will be, as Aaron mentioned as well, the relatively unintrusive targeted mentions by the hosts. I don't think :30 or :60 'commercials spots' like you hear on radio is really the future - for podcasting OR for radio. They disrupt a show's flow, they typically involve products not relevant to the show, and most importantly - people generally don't like them! That's NOT where an advertiser really wants to be. Podcasting typically involves a more targeted demographics (like yours) can really prosper through this. I would probably avoid the 'spots' if I were you but maybe you can experiment with it a bit.

[etomorrow]

being an "indie podcast" shouldn't also mean being flat broke. this podcast at the moment is COSTING most of us money. how long can we really justify doing it if that is the case?

i think "selling out" is when you compromise your ideals and your integrity for the almighty dollar. or signing away creative control of your show to a large company.

taking an advertiser is not selling out in my mind. i'm still an indie podcaster, and i will be if i ever take on advertisers.

[jeffoest]

being an "indie podcast" shouldn't also mean being flat broke. this podcast at the moment is COSTING most of us money. how long can we really justify doing it if that is the case?

Yea - i don't know. Capitol costs are $500, maybe $1000 max for most people. Recurrent costs are $20/month max for most people.

Pocket change compared to your other hobbies or bills.

The REAL argument and the real value is the time time spent doing it and whether that time spent is sustaining unless you get reimbursed for it.

[guscave]

I'm also not too crazy about the :30 ads like the ones on DSC, but I do intend to have more sponsorship in the near future. I used (and prefer) a quick mention about a product in the begining of the show and it worked out much better for me.

I actually got the idea of doing it this way after listening to another podcast that had the same type of placement like DSC and I just got turned off by it. Also if the product or service is not directly connected with my content (health & fitness) than I'll pass on it.

IMO if I'm going to listen to a show that gets interupted by commercials in the middle of the program, then I'll listen to Clear Channel. :wink:

[mesoed]

My opinion: I DO think the future of podcasting ads will be, as Aaron mentioned as well, the relatively unintrusive targeted mentions by the hosts. I don't think :30 or :60 'commercials spots' like you hear on radio is really the future - for podcasting OR for radio. They disrupt a show's flow, they typically involve products not relevant to the show, and most importantly - people generally don't like them! That's NOT where an advertiser really wants to be. Podcasting typically involves a more targeted demographics (like yours) can really prosper through this. I would probably avoid the 'spots' if I were you but maybe you can experiment with it a bit.
Absolutely Jeff...

Like I said in an audio comment I made to AC, normal premade, blast-you with junk advertising does not work in podcasting. ... and the Earthlink spot is one example of that. It's all about personal recommendation and what I coined as "Social Networking - Monitized". For example, I can almost guarantee that Adam talking about his Senseo has generated more sales than the Earthlink spot. Why? Because it comes with personal recommendation!

Melinda... you are the first I've heard that was contacted by Podtrac about a potential advertiser. Congrats! I hope it works out for you! :D I'd just urge you to carefully filter things that are of intrest to you and your listeners and run ads for something you would actually be interested in.

[SFEley]

I think the term 'selling out' means that someone else is putting terms on the content that you are providing OR you are putting up content to please others at the expense of pleasing yourself.
By the first definition, most of the great artists in history "sold out" -- the vast majority of art we appreciate today was created on commission. By the second definition, flipping burgers for a living is "selling out." (Unless it really pleases you to flip them, I suppose.)

I did an intro on this subject on one of my podcasts back in December. My own feeling is that the term "selling out" is highly overused and abused. Fans accuse musicians of selling out if they change their style to make music that will sell more albums. (I.e., decide not to starve for their art.) Authors are accused of selling out if they land a contract to write a Star Wars novel, to enable them to keep the electricity on while they finish their original work. That's just dumb. There's nothing wrong with artists deciding to apply their art in a businesslike fashion. You wouldn't say a bricklayer "sold out" if he got a job to lay bricks for clients' houses instead of doing it in his own yard as a hobby. What's so different about art?

I do think that "selling out" has a significant meaning, and my definition is this: you're selling out if you accept money to do work that violates your own ethical or moral convictions. Not work that pays well, or is inconvenient, or whatever; but work that you actively oppose. To pick a fictional example, if the Dixie Chicks had sung at a fundraiser for Bush in '04, that would probably be selling out. Eminem showing up in an iPod commercial is not selling out unless he has some genuine moral objection to iPods. I doubt he does.

I don't see how the simple decision to run ads in a podcast is selling out, because I don't believe that advertising in a podcast is unethical. Now if you took money to run a commercial that you opposed -- say, if a Linux podcast took ads from SCO, or some Mac podcasts from Microsoft -- that would be a different story. But the mere principle of putting commercials in a podcast? It may or may not be good business, it may or may not annoy listeners; but it isn't "selling out," any more than it's selling out to have commercials on your favorite sitcom.

[jeffoest]

Yea - I don't disagree with you.

It always made me laugh when people would say how xxx band 'sold out' when they signed up with a label and made some commercially viable music.

I always ask them "do they still have opportunities to make the music they really are compelled to?" of course they do. Nobody is stopping them. They are just also making some money commercially so they can continue to make the music that they really wanted to in the first place. Nothing wrong with painting houses to give you the time and freedom to paint art. Heck, nothing wrong with painting houses for that matter.

[Marilynfan]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses. You've given me lots to mull over.

I totally agree that the most effective advertising is word of mouth (ie. podcaster talking about the product), not 30 sec spots that take you totally out of the podcast. This even applies to podcast promos. Sorry another DSC example....but come on AC does not listen to all the shows that he plays promos for. I am more apt to check a show out if I hear another podcaster talking about it and recommending it than hearing someone's promo played with no comments.

mesoed - thanks! I am going to hear them out and see who the sponsor is (they are not able to reveal that to me yet but they assure me it is a great fit with my show content).

Obviously, the only sponsors I wouldn't have a problem with are business that are actually selling Marilyn Monroe memoribilia I seriously can't imagine anything else fitting with the show. But hey I am open to ideas, I guess. And perhaps if it is something that I really am behind then I won't have a problem with it at all. Just a judgement call I guess I will have to make. I just don't want to alienate the listeners that I have.

[jeffoest]

Obviously, the only sponsors I wouldn't have a problem with are business that are actually selling Marilyn Monroe memoribilia I seriously can't imagine anything else fitting with the show. But hey I am open to ideas, I guess. And perhaps if it is something that I really am behind then I won't have a problem with it at all. Just a judgement call I guess I will have to make. I just don't want to alienate the listeners that I have.

Marilynfan, my hunch is that your listeners will have a bit of tolerance for advertisements because of your very focused content. But a little experimental approach couldn't hurt!

[tabulator32]

I will be playing my first paid promo this week and I'm thrilled to have something to cover my expenses for the week. I don't think I'm doing my listeners a great dis-service by putting in an ad that takes less than 5% of my total show and pays all my show expenses.

Look at how much advertising we tolerate on television and radio!

Ok...so I'm a sellout.

8)

[Marilynfan]

Jeff - you are probably right. I am likely thinking a little too narrow. After all, I bet most of my listeners are not absolute nutcases like myself I'm sure they have other interests in life besides MM :lol:


Kurt - congrats! That is great news and I like your justification very much.

Looks like I will do some experimenting if the right opportunity comes along and I will just gage the audiences reaction.

[tabulator32]

Kurt - congrats! That is great news and I like your justification very much.

Looks like I will do some experimenting if the right opportunity comes along and I will just gage the audiences reaction.

Thanks!

I think all of you should consider it a good omen!

Heck! If MY show can get a sponsor, I'm sure that will inspire many others who may not have tried previously.

:lol: 8)

[mpeacock]

I don't believe that the mere presence of advertising is "selling out". My definition of "selling out" is altering your content to meet the explicit/implicit demands of a sponsor/advertiser.

And I'd much rather hear a 30-second paid advert than a 2-minute "tip jar" begging riff any day...

[Cheri]

Marilynfan, I do not think you would be selling out and your show has ptoential for a lot of advertisers. Your only selling out if in your heart you know the product stinks or doesn't fit your show style or content.

I don't know, I come from ...before you start throwing things, I am a media person "in real life" and actually got into podcasting as a hobby to GET AWAY from the media (how ironic).

There are truly way to make it a win/win/win situation for you, the advertiser and your audience.

Does anyone know what the deal is with podtrac? It looks impressive but I have my reservations . When I questioned them about their practices, I haven't heard back..just curious.

[SFEley]

Does anyone know what the deal is with podtrac? It looks impressive but I have my reservations . When I questioned them about their practices, I haven't heard back..just curious.
I've talked to Mark McCrery and I have a good bit of respect for his approach. They seem to be off to a very slow and cautious start right now -- and he's also a really busy guy, so that might be why your e-mail didn't get answered right away -- but my impression is that he understands the value of podcasters' content and is bending over backwards to find the least intrusive ways to advertise.

I don't have a business relationship with Podtrac at this time, nor any real interest in pitching them. I just think that out of all the podcast advertising services out there right now, they seem to be the ones closest to Getting It.

But I could be wrong, of course. Out of curiosity, what are your reservations?

[Cheri]

Qualitative and quantitative information is the bread and butter to advertising. The way I was explained their approach (and I'm waiting for the clarification) is that you put their questionnaire up on your site BEFORE you discuss their advertising conditions and you decide you want to go with them.

So, they are getting your "precious" qualitative information for free. You have bothered your listeners to respond to it and you may not use it in the end (especially if they want a huge percentage, ask for exclusivity) etc.

They start off in a win postiion----by compiling all the information they collect from podcastings, they have an excellent study which they obtained for free. In other media industries, they would have had to pay for such a service (in banners, buying reader lists etc)...

I have asked for their conditions BEFORE I put up a survey. I just don't want to see the podcasters getting screwed and this company walking away with podcasting dollars and the podcasters not getting their fair share.

So, I'll wait for their response. Advertising is a tough world but there is potential to eventually make money from it. What would be nice is to see those who started in the infancy to make the money. Like the Internet once the big companies start coming in.....the entire structure changed. I hope podcasting never gets to that and it keeps its rough edges.

[bmoyle]

I also have been directly contacted by Podtrac, I am interested in seeing what it's all about.

Now I just need to get my timezones in order so we can talk to each other on the phone (me being in Australia and all).

We are living in an interesting-pod-age.. lets see where it goes.

I am always interested in hearing peoples experience about Podtrac and any other service.

[Cheri]

Well it's not an experience yet!! It's just a concern of the way the program seems to be constructed.

I am going to call them today to see if I can get all the details. IT could be a great win/win for podcasters, advertiser, podtrac and podcasting in general. I would just hate to see podcasters fall off that win wagon!

I'll let you know after I talk to them!

[Steve Pinder]

I think all of you would be surprised to know how many are working on similar things like Podtrac. I would sit back and watch for a while.

Making money isn't selling out. If someone says you are, then it's mostly because they're upset it didn't happen to them.

Steve Pinder
www.karatekast.com

[SFEley]

I think all of you would be surprised to know how many are working on similar things like Podtrac. I would sit back and watch for a while.
I'd disagree only slightly. I'd say if you think your podcast is ready for it (i.e., you already have a solid audience and you're delivering great content), feel free to step into the water, but don't enter into any exclusive deals, and don't do anything that'll mess you up if you don't get advertising soon.

I don't really think it matters if one company or another turns out to be a mistake. (And it's inevitable that at least a few of them will be.) The important thing is to make sure it's a mistake you can walk away from.

[Cheri]

SF Ely-- I do agree with what you said. Actually, it helps to get the experience, see what your show is worth etc.. And definitely not exclusivity unless you do category exclusivity for just a short period of time.

I have been busy cross promoting my podcast with sites that have similiar content and it's really showing in my hit, my website and blog numbers. However, its hard to get people to sign up to a podcatcher or iTunes if they already aren't. Many people go to my feedburner and listen to the new show from there.

As for the advertisers, I am working on a few possible connections now. Once again the theory "Slow and steady wins the race"!
[/quote]