GEORGE W. BUSH- LIBERATOR OR LIAR!

[FOSCO]

Hey Everybody,

So are you a supporter or not. Let's hear it. Don't be shy.

I am not. The man is a Liar, Weasel, War Criminal, etc...

Let's try and keep it civil!


Fosco 8)

[bazookajoeshow]

Whoa there, Bucky! Why don't we sit back and see how Rove advises President Bush on hos to handle the Rove scandal first.

Bazooka Joe

[T&TPat]

Not a supporter. He's a big fat liar (how's that for name calling???). Wait, I can do better. He's a no good, two-bit, rat-b@st@rd, scum-sucking liar. Eh, not that good, but it gets my feelings across.

[spartacusroosevelt]

Overheard in the Oval Office

Iraq? Did I say Iraq? Boy do I feel silly. What is that one with the I-tolla? (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050813/2005-08-13T092731Z_01_SPI329552_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAN-BUSH-DC.html)

I was at Target tonight and I went to look at the DVD section. I saw this dvd called George Bush: Faith in the White House. I swear this quote was on the box from some BBC reporter, "Nobody spends more time on their knees than George W. Bush." There will never be a quote that speaks higher volumes about Bush than that one.....

[kickasspodcast]

We all wear a blue dress now.

Jack B.

[O.C. Chris]

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6461/wworry5kn.jpg

This picture is worth a thousand words.

I got this from http://www.thenation.com

It's a great magazine.

[vox_monitor]

I've run out of synonyms for "loathesome evil malevolent bloodthirsty bastard".

If by lie, you mean "intentionally deceive 'because i really wanna' " Then yes, he's a liar.

If by weasel, you mean "conniving little man without a speck of decency within 50 feet of him," then yes he's a weasel.

If by "war criminal" you mean "responsible for torture, slaughter of women and children, destabilization of a region, wholesale assault against the people's righteous liberty, and general horrific and unnecessary violence against myriad civilians," then yes he's a war criminal.

If by "supporter" you mean "one who hopes to see the man tried, convicted, and shoved into a gas chamber," then ABSOLUTELY. I am a supporter.

[mental-escher]

You'all sound like a bunch of flame'n libs to me!

Please people, try to show some respect for our Great Leader.

http://www.radioactivefuture.com/images/zoltron/evil-bush-sticker-sm.jpg

[PupuStudios]

Here's a bumpersticker idea I had...

feel free to print it out and stick it on things...

http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/diehl51/W08.jpg

[FOSCO]

Oh Man. This is pretty one-sided. Surely there are some people out there who are proud of their elected leader. Where are all of the Republicans. Please don't hide, we will not bite. Let us promote understanding of one another. I want to know what makes ya'll tick!

Calling all Right-Wingers. :P

*I will PAYPAL you a dollar if you truthfully admit you voted for Bush and Why. *

It's okay you righties. He has lied to us all. :evil:


FOSCO

This offer only valid to first 15 people.

[docsnavely]

oooooh, a whole dollar! you are so giving :P

i DID vote for dubya. Being as though i am in the military, i honestly see the reason why we went to iraq. i do not fully agree with it, but an oppressed nation is now free (in a sort). the insurgency was expected, but not to the degree to which we have it today. we in the military just honestly thought that the hype of iraqis wanting to ouster saddam was real, and that there wouldn't be too much backlash.... we were apparently wrong.....

but i voted for the man mainly because i liked where he was taking the nation, and i did feel that even though he always goes in guns 'a blazin', he speaks his mind. that, and he treats the military exceptionally well.....

now these are my opinions, and nothing else, so all you people out there please don't try to twist my words or accuse me of stating fact since I was being as subjective as possible......

you wanted words, and i gave them to you......

[Hittman]

You'all sound like a bunch of flame'n libs to me!

Please people, try to show some respect for our Great Leader.

http://www.radioactivefuture.com/images/zoltron/evil-bush-sticker-sm.jpg

What have you got against Ed McMahon?

Side note: M.E, I think you have more fun with your avatars than all the rest of us put together.

[FOSCO]

Hey Docs,

I appreciate the honesty. I will be more than happy to paypal you a dollar. Just PM me with your Paypal stuff!

Fosco 8)

[kickasspodcast]

<Disapointed>

[pwfenton]

At the risk of sounding a little wishy washy on the subject, I'd like to share an e-mail I sent to Mr. Bush just today...

"You must truly believe the American people are idiots. Why else would you stick to the story that you are fighting U.S. domestic terrorism in Iraq, when that story is so completely impossible? You are a bald faced liar, and most of us know that. You are dooming us to the role of victim in an endless holy war all in the name of PROFIT. More people, thankfully, realize this every single day. Iraq was part of your personal agenda from the moment you took office, or at least the personal agenda of whatever puppetmasters pull your strings (I don't actually believe you are personally capable of independent thought). Your administration has brought the art of lying to an astonishing new height. My only hope for you is that someday you will suffer horribly in some way for your crimes against humanity. I don't disagree with you... I don't dislike you... I don't hate you... I LOATHE you.

I sincerely hope that it is possible that we can yet save this country from becoming the evil empire you wish it to become. You appeal to the basest levels of the human psyche. You are either an incredible artist and manipulator... or you ARE nothing more than the swaggering un-thinking trailer park mentality you strive to appeal to.

Eat more pretzels... PLEASE.

[obtuseangle]

Amen, P-Dub. Well said.

My animosity for Mr. Bush is like the Pacific Ocean -- both deep and wide stretching -- but if I had to pinpoint the greatest beef of all it would be this:

W has created a political and ideological divide in our country that is arguably the greatest in history. And he's done it very purposfully and methodically for his own political gain as well as the financial gain of his supporters.

This is tantamount to treason in my book. More to come in an upcoming Special Edition of The Obtuse Angle.

Steve
The Obtuse Angle
http://stevedupont.com

[volwrath]

Send me a dollar dude. I voted for Bush, because Kerry was scary :)

[volwrath]

W has created a political and ideological divide in our country that is arguably the greatest in history.

Actually I think Clinton did that, but I sure do miss that @stard

[FOSCO]

Send me a dollar dude. I voted for Bush, because Kerry was scary :)


Alright! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

The dollar is yours. Would you mind sharing what you thought was scary about Kerry, and how he was, "less scary" than Bush? You owe us that much at least!


PM me your paypal info. Thank you for your help in promoting understanding.


FOSCO 8)

[volwrath]

OK you want my take, fine. The Kerry/Edwards ticket (and the liberal movement) was stopping at nothing to get elected. Kerry was a liar period . All one has to do is to look at the fiasco where he tossed his medals away (or were they someone elses he threw?). This doesn't even account for how he got them. Also the things he said about what he did over in Vietnam automatically means he was an admitted war criminal. How could any one vote for this? I didn't even bring up sorous and moveon.org, and the liberal hatred and vitriolic attacks on Bush

OTOH, Bush invaded Iraq under the pretense of WMDs. I believe he thought they were there at the time. After all Tenet said it was a slam dunk. Nonetheless after not finding the WMDs, he changed his tune, and started talking about the liberation of Iraq and fighting terrorists. I think that is ultimately what will be his downfall. If he would have come out and said we went there for WMDs. They are not there, yet we have done a good thing, I would have more respect for him. Also I tend to be socially conservative, smaller govt, less taxes etc. All bush has done is grown the govt and the deficit.

Moral of the story: I probably won't vote again at all.

Also keep your $1. paypal would collect 23 cents of it anyway :)

[justSue]

I voted for Gee Dubya in his first run. I also voted for Perot - a fiscally conservative Independant (yes, I'm that old.) I WOULD vote for McCain. I've pretty much been a fiscal Republican all my life, but I voted for Kerry this last time 'round. Worth 50 cents??

Gee Dubya is an embarassment to my party, IMO. Please don't flame me, I'm allergic.

[FOSCO]

I voted for Gee Dubya in his first run. I also voted for Perot - a fiscally conservative Independant (yes, I'm that old.) I WOULD vote for McCain. I've pretty much been a fiscal Republican all my life, but I voted for Kerry this last time 'round. Worth 50 cents??.

Naw, it's worth a whole dollar. Thank you for sharing!

PM me your paypal stuff and I willl be more than happy to give you that buck.

Finally some views from the Repulicans. :D

Fosco 8)

[bazookajoeshow]

I feel for ya, Sue. I know a lot of Republicans who say the same thing. Bush is as anti-Republican and anti-conservative as they come.

Bazooka Joe

Gee Dubya is an embarassment to my party, IMO. Please don't flame me, I'm allergic.

[radiofilibuster]

No matter what bone-headed decision was made by Bush, let's not forget to support or troops! I think Bush's biggest crime was sending those brave men and women into a war without having the proper equipment. I don't care which party you are from or who you voted for....that mistake was unexcuseable!

Brian

[bazookajoeshow]

There are more and more comparisons made between Viet Nam and Iraq but one significant difference is the support for the troops during our current boondoggle.

Bazooka Joe

No matter what bone-headed decision was made by Bush, let's not forget to support or troops!

[kickasspodcast]

OK you want my take, fine. The Kerry/Edwards ticket (and the liberal movement) was stopping at nothing to get elected. Kerry was a liar period . All one has to do is to look at the fiasco where he tossed his medals away (or were they someone elses he threw?). This doesn't even account for how he got them. Also the things he said about what he did over in Vietnam automatically means he was an admitted war criminal. How could any one vote for this? I didn't even bring up sorous and moveon.org, and the liberal hatred and vitriolic attacks on Bush.


Have we been watching too much Fox News down in Frist Land or what?
Have some more Kool-Aid with your Lies ;)
Would be awesome if anyone was able of proving anything you just asserted. I think you wrapped up 23 hours of AM talk radio up into one post though. What about the 2k dead Americans and the 100k dead Iraqi's? Where do they come into deciding who to vote for next time? Or do they just not matter to you?



There are more and more comparisons made between Viet Nam and Iraq but one significant difference is the support for the troops during our current boondoggle.

Bazooka Joe
<sigh>
I wish this were true. The troops now are over deployed with Stop-Loss policies that keep reserves there illegally. The troops don't have anywhere near the ammount of equipment or ammo that they need. There are 480,000 people backlogged in the VA hospital just waiting to get treatment. Over 100,000 amputees. Not to mention companies like Titan, Blackwater, CACI, & Triple Canopy with Private Merc's operating in Free Fire Zones who are making 2000-5000 dollars a day for doing the same job or less work along side American Soldiers. Which is a slap in the face to our troops who make about 600 bucks a week for doing the same or riskier work. Don't forget the next set of Horrible Pics featuring Murder, Rape and Molestation of detainees in U.S. Custody. Wow- we are doing a great job raping little boys in the name of freedom- YAY! :roll:

Considering Reserves and National Guard are hardly trained for combat in the 1st place- its not supportive at all to have untrained or undertrained soldiers in battle.

Truthfully- if it weren't for EXTREME advances in medicine- we would be seeing 5-10x the Casualties. 100,000 dead iraqi's though. Now Bush is saying that we need to fight for all the Americans who have died in Iraq- to fight for their honor. HAH! Hasn't this been a BS reason for war since the writings of Homer?

Not to mention.
More dead journalists in a far shorter period of time. And all to create Sharia Law (islamic law) in a formerly Secular Country. And now just like In Vietnam soldiers are being told they can come home with Honor after Peace is obtained. Peace with Honor? Sound familiar?

Lets just get the facts right people- a Chinese Yellow Ribbon Magnet on your car does not mean you support the troops. If you support them and you are under 40 years old I would suggest you enlist because they are consistantly NOT meeting their recruitment goals either.


Gee Dubya is an embarassment to my party, IMO. Please don't flame me, I'm allergic.
Plutocracy sucks don't it?

[docsnavely]

Lets just get the facts right people- a Chinese Yellow Ribbon Magnet on your car does not mean you support the troops. If you support them and you are under 40 years old I would suggest you enlist because they are consistantly NOT meeting their recruitment goals either.


very very easy to play armchair QB isn't it? How about you follow your own advice there sport. I didn't see you out on a ship with me dodging explosives laden skiffs, while getting to sleep 2 hours a day after standing 22 hours of watch either on the flight deck or infront of a radar....

or out in the field with my fellow corpsman who are getting shot at every day!

arguing your points which, many are valid (except for the whole molesting of boys bit) may work well for you.....

but please lay off the advice to others on how to conduct their lives if you aren't going to do as you say......

i enjoy my job, and helping those on the front lines in getting the job done, but don't take your rights for granted! there is a price to pay for all of them, be it by you or others in the past or present......

keep speaking the truth, and making your voice heard. just don't advise when advice isn't requested please.....

[kickasspodcast]

Dude- aren't you in Japan? Been there long enough to start a Podcast even?

I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in people who say they "support" the troops but wouldn't dream of actually going there or sending their kids there.

Not playing armchair anymore than you in Japan. You are about as far away from Harm's way as I am. I know your training was rigorous and hardcore- BUT you are stationed on a base in Japan- really safe spot for you to be too.

Again I am really sorry if this came across wrong.

Take my rights for granted? Are you serious? Yeah- my grandparents and uncles and aunts paid the price in WW2. There hasn't been a necessary war since. Sorry bro. The big difference is people actually SACRIFICED for the War. Now people act as if we aren't even in combat. There is NOTHING asked of the American people. In fact we get tax cuts during war? Unbelievable.

BTW- we are building 14 military bases in Iraq. Is there anyway you would be willing to volunteer to go there and leave Japan? I know you would if you were asked, but would you REALLY volunteer to go there? I will be the 1st person to join the Services when we are actually attacked ok?

But don't give me the "take my rights for granted" crap. That is just partisan hooey.

I think the best thing we could give our troops is a Good LEADER. And that isn't the biggest chicken-hawk of all: W.
(imho)

Jack B.

***ADDED
The only reason I suggest people enlist is because if we aren't meeting recruitment levels it puts you Josh, a troop, at greater risk. I thank you for your service- You did sign up and join. I will continue to vote for people who give you the best and most advanced equipment and funding that you can have to do your job.

Peace.

[docsnavely]

Not playing armchair anymore than you in Japan. You are about as far away from Harm's way as I am. I know your training was rigorous and hardcore- BUT you are stationed on a base in Japan- really safe spot for you to be too.

I HAVE done my part. Like I said, I was the one standing 22 hours of watch a day while sitting in our PLP for 4 weeks straight waiting for the order to shoot! I did go there for temporary support (2 weeks isn't that long) to cover my command's commitments there at one of the FSH's. I have friends who are there getting shot at right now. I don't doubt that i will end up going to the dirt for good before my last 2 years are up. My being in Japan currently is irrelevant to the conversation. I say I have been in Japan for 4 years, but that's only because that's where my wife and child have been while I have been underway or assigned for temporary duty for 3 of those years.

No I haven't volunteered, only because I am in a position at the command where I am not "expendable" as was explained to me by my CO.

Take my rights for granted? Are you serious? Yeah- my grandparents and uncles and aunts paid the price in WW2. There hasn't been a necessary war since.

Who exactly justifies the need for war? I honestly see no need for war to ever be fought out. But that's just me.....

I will be the 1st person to join the Services when we are actually attacked ok?

is that what it takes? for us to be "attacked"? what ever happened to just joining for the good of your country? if that's what it takes, then I honestly wouldn't want you by my side in combat. i say that not as a personal attack, but because i have seen too many people who joined because of 9/11 expecting to go out and get revenge immediately on whatever "raghead" they saw. instead they learned that that's not what the military is about, and turned out to be shitty members. it's about following orders and getting a job done at someone higher up's request.

But don't give me the "take my rights for granted" crap. That is just partisan hooey.

you're the one who brought up politics, not me

I think the best thing we could give our troops is a Good LEADER. And that isn't the biggest chicken-hawk of all: W.
(imho)

Jack B.

point taken, understood, and concurred with......

***ADDED
The only reason I suggest people enlist is because if we aren't meeting recruitment levels it puts you Josh, a troop, at greater risk. I thank you for your service- You did sign up and join. I will continue to vote for people who give you the best and most advanced equipment and funding that you can have to do your job.

Peace.

and that is why i fully respect you and your views. i just wanted you to understand that it is very easy to call the shots, but when you see it first hand, it's a little different.....

[Barefoot Radio.com]

Definately he's a liar who thinks he's doing what's right.

:twisted:

[volwrath]

OK you want my take, fine. The Kerry/Edwards ticket (and the liberal movement) was stopping at nothing to get elected. Kerry was a liar period . All one has to do is to look at the fiasco where he tossed his medals away (or were they someone elses he threw?). This doesn't even account for how he got them. Also the things he said about what he did over in Vietnam automatically means he was an admitted war criminal. How could any one vote for this? I didn't even bring up sorous and moveon.org, and the liberal hatred and vitriolic attacks on Bush.


Have we been watching too much Fox News down in Frist Land or what?
Have some more Kool-Aid with your Lies ;)
Would be awesome if anyone was able of proving anything you just asserted. I think you wrapped up 23 hours of AM talk radio up into one post though. What about the 2k dead Americans and the 100k dead Iraqi's? Where do they come into deciding who to vote for next time? Or do they just not matter to you?


What lies have I spouted? What, would you like me to prove kerry tossed his medals and admitted to being a war criminal?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

[personal attack removed by moderator]

BTW Kerry later backed off those words, yet he did indeed admit to being a war criminal

At least Kerry served his country instead of trying to find planes that would never see a day of combat in Vietnam or skipping town for a while to help someone on an election. According to the medals he obtained from the US government, he's a war hero so yeah I voted for the guy since you asked who would vote for him. How many medals do Dick Cheney, Bush, Hannity, O'Reilly or any of the other numerous chickhawks have? It won't take you long to count them up.

[mental-escher]

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

Just a bit of a non sequitur here, but how many of us would have to courage and wherewithall to: 1.) survive a fire fight, 2.) be able to overcome the horror of being in war, 3.) Stand up in front of the whole country and admit to the horror of said war, and to one's own personal responsibility for a small part of that horror? Might be helpful to thiink about that before you start throwing feces at each other.

War sucks, the current war is based on lies and manipulation at the highest levels of government. Bush and Co should be impeached.

When looking back on Iraq in 5-10 yrs, how are you going to feel about the horror of this war? That is was somehow justified to focus the war on terror on the people of Iraq ("rather fight 'em over there then here in America"??

I am personally embarrased in our country that Bush and Co is not being held accountable- nobody seems to be able to effectively question bush and Co (suppression of decent, smearing of dissentors, etc), and that is a totalitarian system.

I am not advocating isolationism, only accountability.

[bazookajoeshow]

I know exactly what you're talking about and I agree. I meant it more in the sense of I don't think the troops are going to come back to Americans calling them baby killers and gook killers who returned from Viet Nam.

I don't know what will break my heart more: knowing the soldiers will come back realizing that they were pawns in a travesty of a just war or that they are convinced that it was a just war.

Bazooka Joe


There are more and more comparisons made between Viet Nam and Iraq but one significant difference is the support for the troops during our current boondoggle.

Bazooka Joe
<sigh>
I wish this were true.

[volwrath]

At least Kerry served his country instead of trying to find planes that would never see a day of combat in Vietnam or skipping town for a while to help someone on an election. According to the medals he obtained from the US government, he's a war hero so yeah I voted for the guy since you asked who would vote for him. How many medals do Dick Cheney, Bush, Hannity, O'Reilly or any of the other numerous chickhawks have? It won't take you long to count them up.

I was asked why I voted for Bush and I told why. So Kerry served his country by commiting war-time atrocities? What does it matter how many medals journalists on the right have? how many do Al franken, Michael Moore, and janeane garofolo have?

[kickasspodcast]

What lies have I spouted? What, would you like me to prove kerry tossed his medals and admitted to being a war criminal?

OK you want my take, fine. The Kerry/Edwards ticket (and the liberal movement) was stopping at nothing to get elected. Kerry was a liar period . All one has to do is to look at the fiasco where he tossed his medals away (or were they someone elses he threw?). This doesn't even account for how he got them. Also the things he said about what he did over in Vietnam automatically means he was an admitted war criminal. How could any one vote for this? I didn't even bring up sorous and moveon.org, and the liberal hatred and vitriolic attacks on Bush


1. You are accusing the liberal movement (if there is such a thing- have a website for the 'liberal movement'?) of stopping at nothing to get elected for president. Would you seriously expect anyone to believe that ALL candidates virtually stop at nothing to get elected to be President?
What a few things the GOP has done to get elected?
-Redistrict Texas
-Pack the Supreme Court
-Implement Diebold to screw up elections nationwide including in Ohio.
-Slander and personally attack honorable people like John McCain, Max Cleland, and most recently Paul Hackett.
Whole Books have been written about this practice dude. Politics is dirty and the GOP are the dirtiest of all. To try and go after the left for political trickery(these days) is laughable. Afterall Republicans are the best at it. Why do you think the control the whole Gov't? Practice makes perfect baby.

2.All one has to do is look at the Medal throwing? What the hell? How much Limbaugh do you fill your ears with? Everyone knows this story is both pointless and misleading. Kerry won a bunch of war medals for his SERVICE in vietnam? That isn't good enough for the republicants so you concoct some story about him throwing someone elses medals or fake medals- nothing you can prove of course- but boy does it cloud the water and make us all forget WHY kerry got those medals in the 1st place. Everything the swift-boat-freaks (funded by the RNC btw) claimed turned out to be Bullshit.
What do you mean how he got them? He earned them- nobody has EVER been able to prove otherwise. Bush was doing coke while Kerry was in Vietnam. But you would rather have a Liar like Bush and believe the crap you hear on Fox News and Sean Hannity. OK buddy.





SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.


Kerry is simply saying that some of the things (most/all) soldiers were ordered to do in Vietnam were criminal. And yes he was in Vietnam so
he would be included in one of the soldiers that was ordered to do aweful things. There are even more books written about the war crimes that the
US is guilty of in Vietnam. Kerry goes on to say that War is essentially hell. He tries to make the War especially Vietnam seem as bad as it gets, because in most cases, it was. I don't know what you are trying to read out of what he plainly states. But I would reccomend you see 2 movies. "The Seige of Firebase Gloria" and "Apocalypse Now". See what hell Veitnam was.
Wait till we all get to see the new Video's from Abu Ghraib. Hah- Talk about Criminal.


Also the things he said about what he did over in Vietnam automatically means he was an admitted war criminal. How could any one vote for this?
Dude- we explained this one before- In a criminal war like Vietnam or Iraq- all soldiers will be considered to be doing criminal things. Why do you have to have this explained to you? If we ilegally go to Iraq- the stuff we do there is ALSO illegal.


BTW Kerry later backed off those words, yet he did indeed admit to being a war criminal
Cool- show me the speach were Kerry says "I am a war criminal". Not the speach were he says the things the military did in vietnam were criminal
Calling him a Flip-Flopper are we? DARE to think for yourself man!


I didn't even bring up sorous and moveon.org, and the liberal hatred and vitriolic attacks on Bush
Let me take you All the way back to the mid 90's. The economy was great, the world was peaceful, Clinton was bombing in the Sudan to try and Kill someone none of us ever heard of... Osama Bin Laden.

What did your GOP friends cry? "No War for Monica!" The day he fired missiles taking out terrorist operations was the very same day he was aquitted by the Senate. Aquitted. Remember how Kind and un-vitriolic all the Republicans and Main Stream Media was to Clinton? They were SOO nice and loving. Not as if Clinton ever hurt anyone- I mean- Clinton F'd Monica' but Bush is f'ing the whole world now! Remember- when Clinton Lied- NOONE died.

Now you bring up Sorous and Moveon.org... are you serious? The battllecry of the Dittohead. Not that oyu said anything at all about Moveon.org and what Sorous has anything to do with. But you just assume we all know what you are talking about- because you just assumed it was the truth when you heard it. Ever heard of THESE people?

Roger Ailes
Rupert Murdoch
Karl Rove
Richard Scaife
Donald Trump

Just a few of the thousands of GOP Millionaires who "aqua-turf" groups like Move America Forward and the Family Research Counsel. And don't forget the neo-con base The Christian Coalition who's leader Pat Robertson recently called for the execution of a South American President?

There is corruption on all sides- to think not is naivity or dishonesty.

It would be great if you could actually prove anything you alleged y'know.

[personal attack removed by moderator]

Funny how you (predictably) ignore the 100,000 dead iraqi's. Even the 2000 dead troops. And of course the Depleted Uranium issues don't even show up on your radar of consideration.

When people actually start caring about the destruction of human life- this world will get on the right track.

Now let me take you back to a clear autumn morning. About 4 years ago. George H. W. Bush sitting with Osama bin Ladens brother watching the twin towers burn. Friends for 30 years. Makes you think about it eh?

And now it gets better and better (in a sick kinda way). We have new pictures from Abu Ghraib showing images more horrible than anything that happened in vietnam. We also see the total apathy regarding Darfur- and how our "culture of life" president never gave a ****.

The Modern GOP Pro-War position cannot be justified in any way. Neither can support for the current administration. Many have tried- but with actual information- its impossible to be Pro-War.
You see if you are Pro-War, you are Anti-Everything Else.

Why did we go to Iraq again?
-WMD's (that the Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam to use on the Iranians)
-Saddam and Osama were in on 9/11. Wrong again- the 2 hated eachother.
-Saddam wasn't working with the inspectors. Wrong also- I saw the inspectors on the TV with my own 2 eyes. The rest of the world saw it too.
-The US Needs to "Bring the Fight to the Terrorists"-Tell that to my frends in London and Madrid
-We didn't want the smoking gun to be a "mushroom cloud". Way to use fear to convince people of a bad idea. C

I could go on and on and on.

Now we are being told we have to Bring Freedom to Iraq. What a freakin joke. Its only going to get worse. It will either result in Iraqi Civil War. OR a regional War between the Shiites and Kurds against the entire Sunni Arab World.

Don't forget Bush's boy in Iraq, Ahmad Chalabi and how could we forget Chalabi's friend and ally: a guy named Muqtada al-Sadr. Remember the Shiite Clerics who's men killed Casey Sheehan in Fallujah - oh yeah- That guy. Do you even know who Titan, CACI or Blackwater are?.
Remember why the Marines had changed their plan for Fallujah, remember 3 Private Mercs being hung from a bridge?
Do you know Blackwater fought on behalf of the South African Gov'ts Apartheid? Seriously why am I continuing this with someone who doesn't even respect me enough and has to ask my Age. I think I can hold my own here pal.

Recently the right wing has taken to smearing a greiving woman who's son was killed by Sadr's men, Sad'r a good friend of Chalabi who is Bush's buddy in Iraq. Wonder why Bush won't meet with Cindy? I don't.

TO Josh-
Seriously man- you are 100% correct. There is no way for me to fairly characterize it from your eyes. I know every life is hard, esepecially one that takes you away from your Family. Thanks for being open minded (as always) I think we have reached common ground on the whole.

To Bazooooooooka Joe-
Love ya man- always did- Yeah- I think the big difference is there isn't any real resentment towards the troops like there was a little of during Vietnam. That is a good thing BUT- maybe only the case because of how short of a time Iraq has taken AND the fact that we as a culture don't even seem to know we are at war- whereas in Vietnam people were being drafted and everything was WAY more forcably interactive. <sigh>

OK- Bout it- surely will add or edit- BECAUSE I CARE!

Jack B.
(sorry for any accidental spelling mistakes- My bad)


****ADDED

The main issue is that soldiers NEVER be sent into harms way unless its ACTUALLY totally NEEDED to do so. They also should NEVER be misused or abused like they have been under Bush. How will the ever trust us?

How do you tell the parents of the 41 Female Soldiers who died in Iraq that their daughters died to establish Sharia Law in Iraq and set womens' rights back to the middle Ages? Seriously? The worst thing about Iraq right now is the the SUNNI's are the Secular ones. You either have to deal with a minority that supported Saddam OR have to deal with Radical Islamic Clerics from the Kurds and the Shiites.

OK- edited enough.

Come on Volwrath! Bring the noise about Mike Moore and Al Franken!

Makes you sound as original as the rest of the sheeple who support the GOP.

The Following is a photographic Look at things

http://www.nostradamusprophecy.org/images/handshake.jpg
http://gods4suckers.net/images/bush_gives_the_finger.jpg
http://images.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper.jpg
http://photos7.flickr.com/8379954_a6a976fd8b.jpg
http://www.robbiek.org/Images/Jokes/bush%20gives%20the%20finger.jpg
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/coffin_photos/dover/casket08.jpg

"We have no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the 11 September attacks."

George W. Bush

Want some more?
A page on Gulf War Syndrome Birth Defects. A pesky little side affect of the Depleted Uranium that we use.
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
"In an act of stark cruelty, the US dominated Sanctions Committee refuses to permit Iraq to import the clean-up equipment that they desperately need to decontaminate their country of the Depleted Uranium ammunition that the US fired at them. Approximately 315 tons of DU dust was left by the use of this ammunition.The Sanctions Committee also refuses to allow the mass importation of anti-cancer treatments, which contain trace amounts of radio-isotopes, on the grounds that these constitute '...nuclear materials..'
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/untitled01.JPG

[cid92]

I voted for Michael Badnarik (even though Gary Nolan was the better Libertarian candidate). At first I supported the war since the UN has been trying to hold Iraq and Saddam accountable for something, anything, for ten years and Saddam pissed all over that "organiztion" and they took it like a good German fetish film star.

Since it was deemed, at the time, that there was a potential threat that Iraq could potentially be linked to a terrorist attack against America, I was for it. Better to fight those *****les on their land than in ours. Keep that **** out of our borders.

While I still hold a sliver of hope that someday we'll find someting over there, the fact is that nothing has been found. Our intelligence on the issue was either old, bad, both, or made up. Whatever it was, it has lead to the non-discovery of WMD's. So, when the administration had to fess up, they kinda did, side stepped it, did a little "wag the tail" and said hey look, we got rid of an oppresive leader. Now I don't disagree with that one bit. The evidence is overwhelming that Saddam was, well, and evil ****er. The man was a civil and human rights nightmare. Then again, so is North Korea and China yet you don't see us gearing up to turn those countries into democratic countries do you? If your goal was to take this guy out, then say it and then be prepared to take out others since you've now decided to police the civil and human right violations across the globe.

It's honestly not a bad thing that we're trying to get a democratic foothold in the Middle East. If it will help other countries there realize there is a better way of life, then happy day. Less people oppressed is a good thing.

Now if we can just figure out how to stop our freedoms from being taken away thanks to the Patriot Act, that would be a spectacular.

Oh, and since we're talkin about the Middle East, could one stray bullet or one terrorist cell in Iran somehow, someway take out Sean Penn while he's over there pretending to be a concerned American journalist covering the Iran elections? I'm tired of all the actors and actresses pushing their views onto the American public like it's the be all to end all viewpoint. So let's start with Mr. Penn.

[volwrath]

Jack B:
*sigh* where do I start? I guess at the beginning. Excuse me if I don't quote all your comments but I am feeling rather lazy.

1. OK Ill concede the fact that both parties do whatever it takes.

2. I believe that Kerry concoted the story of throwing the medals... On Good Morning America today, Kerry responded:

GIBSON: 1984, senator, to the present. you have said a number of times, as brian pointed out as recently as friday with the “�los angeles times,�� have you said a number of times that you did not throw away the vietnam medals themselves. but now this interview from 1971 shows up the in which you say that was the medals themselves that were thrown away.

KERRY: no, i don’t.

GIBSON: can you explain?

KERRY: absolutely. that’s absolutely incorrect. ...i stood up in front of the country, reached into my shirt, visibly for the nation to see, and took the ribbons off my chest, said a few words and threw them over the fence.

...GIBSON: senator, i was there 33 years ago and i saw you throw medals over the fence and we didn’t find out until later –

KERRY: no, you didn’t see me throw th. charlie, charlie, you are wrong. that’s not what happened. i threw my ribbons across.

...GIBSON: the military makes no distinction between ribbons and medals but you are the one who made the distinction. in 1984—

KERRY: no . we made no distinction back then, charlie. we made no distinction.

...GIBSON: you called them and you made the distinction and said i didn’t throw my medals away. i just threw the ribbons away. you made the distinction.

KERRY: ...i took my ribbons off my chest just as other veterans did.

...GIBSON: when trying to appeal to the anti-war people in 1971, you said as in that interview, it was the medals and then when the people who supported the war were giving you political problems, you then said i didn’t throw the medals away 13 years later.

KERRY: that’s the most—with all due respect, that’s the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. because i stood up in front of the country, in front of cameras, a reporter of the “�boston globe�� got it correct . he wrote about the medals but knew they were my ribbons.

3. i gave you the quotes that Kerry said HE COMMITTED atrocities, not that he served in Vietnam and soldiers in vietnam commited atrocities so he is guilty by association. Good try at spin though.

4. You keep bringing up my GOP buddies and saying I am a ditto head, listening to Hannity, Oreilly and Rush, but I don't watch/listen to any of them. I think for the most part they are pricks. The only "political analyst" I watch is the slightly left leaning Jon Stewart. Thanks for playing though...

5. If you go back to my first (ok third post) you will see that I stated that I was disheartened by how things have turned out in Iraq, and I probably wont vote again, hence your statements about me ignoring the situation is blatently false is as much of your post.

[kickasspodcast]

Jack B:
*sigh* where do I start? I guess at the beginning. Excuse me if I don't quote all your comments but I am feeling rather lazy.

1. OK Ill concede the fact that both parties do whatever it takes.

2. I believe that Kerry concoted the story of throwing the medals... On Good Morning America today, Kerry responded:

GIBSON: 1984, senator, to the present. you have said a number of times, as brian pointed out as recently as friday with the “�los angeles times,�� have you said a number of times that you did not throw away the vietnam medals themselves. but now this interview from 1971 shows up the in which you say that was the medals themselves that were thrown away.

KERRY: no, i don’t.

GIBSON: can you explain?

KERRY: absolutely. that’s absolutely incorrect. ...i stood up in front of the country, reached into my shirt, visibly for the nation to see, and took the ribbons off my chest, said a few words and threw them over the fence.

...GIBSON: senator, i was there 33 years ago and i saw you throw medals over the fence and we didn’t find out until later –

KERRY: no, you didn’t see me throw th. charlie, charlie, you are wrong. that’s not what happened. i threw my ribbons across.

...GIBSON: the military makes no distinction between ribbons and medals but you are the one who made the distinction. in 1984—

KERRY: no . we made no distinction back then, charlie. we made no distinction.

...GIBSON: you called them and you made the distinction and said i didn’t throw my medals away. i just threw the ribbons away. you made the distinction.

KERRY: ...i took my ribbons off my chest just as other veterans did.

...GIBSON: when trying to appeal to the anti-war people in 1971, you said as in that interview, it was the medals and then when the people who supported the war were giving you political problems, you then said i didn’t throw the medals away 13 years later.

KERRY: that’s the most—with all due respect, that’s the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. because i stood up in front of the country, in front of cameras, a reporter of the “�boston globe�� got it correct . he wrote about the medals but knew they were my ribbons.

3. i gave you the quotes that Kerry said HE COMMITTED atrocities, not that he served in Vietnam and soldiers in vietnam commited atrocities so he is guilty by association. Good try at spin though.

4. You keep bringing up my GOP buddies and saying I am a ditto head, listening to Hannity, Oreilly and Rush, but I don't watch/listen to any of them. I think for the most part they are pricks. The only "political analyst" I watch is the slightly left leaning Jon Stewart. Thanks for playing though...

5. If you go back to my first (ok third post) you will see that I stated that I was disheartened by how things have turned out in Iraq, and I probably wont vote again, hence your statements about me ignoring the situation is blatently false is as much of your post.

Wow- I burried you with facts, information, events, and even profound photography and the best you have is the transcripts from a Good Morning America Interview about throwing Medals? What does any of that really prove anyway.
Kerry served his country. Its not fair that you discount his service because of what he may or may not have done with his or someone elses medals. It's what those medals mean.. Kerry is by FAR not a perfect guy or Candidate. BUT he doesn't have 1/100th of the flaws that Bush does. And not to mention Bush did nothing in the 1st Term. Everything he has done has actually made our country Suck in ways that some never dreamed. How does that measure up to some story about some Medals? Not that anyone can prove he Didn't totally earn those Medals saving peoples' 6. But to focus on that would weaken your argument.

Why bother even mentioning the 7 trillion dollar debt, 9/11, Stingy With the Tsunami, The war in Iraq, Giving up on Finding Bin Laden, Patriot Act, John Bolton, Terri Schiavo, The Real ID Act, Abstinence Only Sex Education(rofl), Big Pharma Wet Dreams, John Roberts, Endless Tax Cuts to Corporations, Privatize Social Security Scam, And as of 8/29/05: Bush's Aproval Rating: 37% Actually Lower than Nixon's in the Summer of 74'
...why bother mentioning any of this when you don't even want to comment on the masses of other facts and events and assertions I have thus far made.

And..
I am not SPINNING kerry's statements.
If you read what he said its clear

"I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones."
He and thousands of other Soldiers.
And then...
"all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down."
You see?
He just said right there in no uncertain terms- that he and 'thousands of soliders' were 'ordered by the US Gov from the Top down to commit atrocities'. It seems pretty clear to me. You will only overlook this it you really want to. ;)

You came at me with a GMA interview about some medals?
Dude... do you know what Depleted Uranium Dust does to human beings?

I don't need Mikey Moore or Al Franken to represent- I'll be glad to carry on a good back and forth with you if you are willing to actually give me the respect I think I have thus far earned. No- not everyone likes my Cupcakes but they are Green with Red Frosting and they are yummy to me and my friends. :lol:

You can either Laugh or Cry right?

Also if you don't vote to STOP the war- You can't seriously claim to Care about it. If you do nothing to put the fire out you might as well have set it.

Jack B.

(will be expecting a bit more effort next time if you don't mind plz sir.)
http://www.puretrials.com/ht/bushsays****you.gif


http://corona.dreamhosters.com/images/whitekid2.gif

[kickasspodcast]

But Fosco WILL Send you a Dollar.

Just PM Him your Info.

Hey- its a dollar.

[cid92]

First off, if you're going to spout off this much crap, then at least be the better man in the argument and provide links....preferrably non-partisan links so you don't come off being criticized as a left wing nutjob.

Now let me take you back to a clear autumn morning. About 4 years ago. George H. W. Bush sitting with Osama bin Ladens brother watching the twin towers burn. Friends for 30 years. Makes you think about it eh?

I just hate it when George Senior had a planned meeting that happened to fall on 9/11. It's not like they called each other up around 8:30 that morning and were like "Hey, come on over to my room with a six pack as we watch 3000 American's die".

Darfur - what exactly would you like us to do with that mess? If we intevene there, then we should be stepping into every country that has a civil war/genocide campaign. The Sudanese Government has been supporting Janjaweed militia groups for nearly 20 years, terrorizing the civilian population there and finally the rebel groups have been standing up and fighting back. By your own statement we should have stepped into the Rwanda mess back in 1994 then. At the time no one, not even the UN wanted to step foot into Rwanda when the genocide there began. If you're gonna blame Bush for not taking action in Darfur, then be prepared to heap the same on Clinton for not stepping into Rwanda. While we're at it are you also blaming Nixon, Ford, and Carter for not stepping in and stopping the roughly 400,000 murders that Idi Amin doled out in Uganda from 1971 to 1979? How far back would you like to go with this?

WMD's (that the Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam to use on the Iranians)

The decision was based on what intelligence we had at the time. Right, wrong, bad, made up, whatever, that's what we went in on. It's a given now that something wasn't right and instead of owning up to that, the administration has taken the bait and switch method and has turned this into the "got rid of an evil man and have brought freedom to the region" argument. Great, but there still need to be answers on why the WMD intelligence was so far off.

Saddam and Osama were in on 9/11. Wrong again- the 2 hated eachother.

Can you provide a link? I find it hard to believe that a man running a terrorist organization hates a man who pays a bounty for terrorist actions (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/18/wiplan118.xml - scroll about half way down the article). That's like saying that Yassar Arafat had an issue with Hamas and the pain they've inflicted on the Israeli Army. Ironically, Hamas was initally supported by Israel as a way to undermine Arafat's Fatah movement.

Saddam wasn't working with the inspectors. Wrong also- I saw the inspectors on the TV with my own 2 eyes. The rest of the world saw it too.

This one is rich. Just because the inspectors were in Iraq does not mean that there was co-operation. Just because it was on TV doesn't make it true. Here are the summary articles from the UN itself on how Saddam did NOT co-operate with their resolutions. These are true. I don't see how these UN articles show to the rest of the world Saddam's co-operation with inspections.

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/gopher/s91/24

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/gopher/s92/53

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1996/9614681e.htm

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1997/9716832e.htm

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1997/9728387e.htm

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1997/9731347e.htm

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1998/sres1194.htm

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/1998/sres1205.htm

The US Needs to "Bring the Fight to the Terrorists"-Tell that to my frends in London and Madrid

What happened on 9/11 as well as the bombings in Madrid and London were horrible acts. Going forward would you rather have us fight the fight on the terrorists ground or would you rather have it fought on our ground? Personally, I don't want to think that everytime I drive downtown Chicago that some terrorist act is going to happen in front of eyes.

We didn't want the smoking gun to be a "mushroom cloud". Way to use fear to convince people of a bad idea.

Any dope that believes this is well, a dope. While it is not out of the realm of possibility that some terrorist organization has nuclear material, they don't have the way or means to convert that into a device big enough to cause a mushroom cloud like the ones that darkened Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Dirty bomb, maybe, but that doesn't require anything to detonate the material to critical mass to cause a nuclear explosion. All they need is some C4 to help spread the material around to cause radioactive contamination. For the terrorist cells in America to work, all they need to do is start with simple things like night club, bar, or cafe bombings. No massive amount of death needs to happen. Just enough to make people think if they want to leave the house for that cup of coffee or that drink with a friend.

Ahmad Chalabi. Weak arguement here. The guy was all but discredited a year and a half ago. He made just enough inroads though be be the interim Oil Minister. A position he will not hold once the new government there takes over. You've got to pick someone better who actually matters now.

Sadr and Casey Sheehan. Can you please provide a link that shows that Sadr's men were directly responsible for killing Casey Sheehan.

Titan, CACI, and Blackwater. Jesus, talk about grabbing the tinfoil hat. Exactly what relevance does Blackwater's African campaigns have anything to do with Iraq. Blackwater is security provider for governments and high ranking officals. Jesus. You might as well throw Executive Outcome's campaigns in Sierra Leone and Angola to this list since it has nothing to do with Iraq. Blackwater is contracted by the government to provide security at certain buildings so Army or Marine forces don't have to. Considering that most Blackwater employee's are ex-Special Forces, does it suprise you that they are well armed and well trained? Plus they are in a combat zone. Does it suprise you that they might actually put up a fight instead of run away. They are paid to protect you know. CACI is a defense contracted firm that has provided IT work for the government for 40 years now. They have been alleged to perform interrogations for the military as well as participated in prisoner abuse. Care to provide an accurate and credible link for this allegation? Titan is another firm alleged to be involved with prisoner abuse. It's a firm that sells intelligence to the military. Again, credible links would be nice.

Finally - Cindy Sheehan. Can you please explain to me why she gets to have her voice heard over everyone elses? There are over 1700 greiving mothers out there but not all of them agree with Cindy Sheehan. She does not speak for all mothers out there. She speaks for herself. She invokes the names of the dead troops to further her cause even when asked not to (http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=3723057&nav=0s3ddLEI). I loved her statement in a speech about getting Israel out of Palestine (http://www.veteransforpeace.org/convention05/sheehan_transcript.htm). That was great. Read the speech. She sounds like a loon. She's against the war and has openly stated it. She takes smear tactics in the name of her dead son (she did say that Senator John Warner "fell in lockstep behind his Führer" - or should we say Bush?). I have a better idea. If you want your organization to really take off, then take the high ground. Why give the right any fuel for the fire to come after you? If you make valid points and try to argue what facts are out there, then no one can touch you. But start calling the sitting president the Führer, making foreign policy for Israel, cater you camp, etc, then expect the attacks. I feel sorry for the woman. She lost her son and that cannot be easy to deal with but do yourself and your sons memory a favor, do your protesting with respect and higher moral grounds and no one will come after you.

And no, I didn't vote for Bush and I don't support the war. I support our troops, but not the war. I do support good debates instead of ones filled with halfass commentary that I could get from Air America Radio......that is if I could find a city that actually carries Air America Radio....

[kickasspodcast]

First off, if you're going to spout off this much crap, then at least be the better man in the argument and provide links....preferrably non-partisan links so you don't come off being criticized as a left wing
nutjob.

While asking for links with an open mind is reasonable. You are so partisan in your own post- I am refusing to post links to what are googleable topics.
To criticize someone for not using links is just BS because you don't have any links that actually disprove my assertions.

The only way I could be criticized as a "partisan left wing nutjob" is from someone who is definitely not worthy of continuing this conversation. But will address a few of your distorted views. Because you and every other Pro-War person in this thread refuses to address the human issues of this- I won't bother you with links that ANYONE could google.


I just hate it when George Senior had a planned meeting that happened to fall on 9/11. It's not like they called each other up around 8:30 that morning and were like "Hey, come on over to my room with a six pack as we watch 3000 American's die".

Then please explain the incredible coincidence. Or please explain why the entire family of the #1 suspect was flown out of the Country.
This opens up an discussion about why 9/11 didn't have to happen that deserves Gigabytes somewhere other than this thread.
-I will say that its documented(googlable) that NORAD did not follow their own procedure when 4 transpondors went out.

Darfur - what exactly would you like us to do with that mess? If we intevene there, then we should be stepping into every country that has a civil war/genocide campaign.

For Starters. Something at all. Not preached "Culture of Life to the World" while bombing and Ignoring the Genocide in Africa. Second, nice way to summarily dismiss the idea altogether by saying if we went to say 300,000 African's in Darfur- we would have had to go into every country. Not even close to reasonable- but 2 points for the attempt.


The Sudanese Government has been supporting Janjaweed militia groups for nearly 20 years, terrorizing the civilian population there and finally the rebel groups have been standing up and fighting back. By your own statement we should have stepped into the Rwanda mess back in 1994 then. At the time no one, not even the UN wanted to step foot into Rwanda when the genocide there began.

All in all- we the richest most capable country in the world did nothing to help Africans who were slaughtered in 100's of Thousands. Yeah it was messy- but it should have to get a bit prickly before the masses are murdered no?

If you're gonna blame Bush for not taking action in Darfur then be prepared to heap the same on Clinton for not stepping into Rwanda. While we're at it are you also blaming Nixon, Ford, and Carter for not stepping in and stopping the roughly 400,000 murders that Idi Amin doled out in Uganda from 1971 to 1979? How far back would you like to go with this?
YES I knew it! Out with the tactical diversions. Clinton, Ford, Nixon have NOTHING to do with Darfur. Great attempt at bringing them into this conversation by saying. "Well look what THESE guys did." Doesn't really have much to do with Darfur eh? Nice Try Pal.
But I am sure Clinton, Ford, Nixon, AND Carter would all quote something you are about to say in their own Defense
"The decision was based on what intelligence we had at the time."
Kinda Ironical eh?



The decision was based on what intelligence we had at the time. Right, wrong, bad, made up, whatever, that's what we went in on. It's a given now that something wasn't right and instead of owning up to that, the administration has taken the bait and switch method and has turned this into the "got rid of an evil man and have brought freedom to the region" argument. Great, but there still need to be answers on why the WMD intelligence was so far off.

Amazing.. its ok to explain away Bushes Mistakes by DEMANDING answers for Intelligence breadowns. Come at me with somthing I can't get on Hannity or Limbaugh next time ok? Again- never any Responsibility. Close enough to feel fair, but not really. It gets worse ahead..


Can you provide a link? I find it hard to believe that a man running a terrorist organization hates a man who pays a bounty for terrorist actions (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/18/wiplan118.xml - scroll about half way down the article). That's like saying that Yassar Arafat had an issue with Hamas and the pain they've inflicted on the Israeli Army. Ironically, Hamas was initally supported by Israel as a way to undermine Arafat's Fatah movement.


People love to Confuse what are really simple Concepts- especially if they are wrong. You allege so much in that paragraph- I am not sure where to start. For one- can you provide some proof that Saddam and Osama were connected?
Osama a devout religios fundamentalist. Saddam a completely secular Sunni. Hardly Allies. Actually more different in many ways than Jews and Catholics.
I can tell you what George Bush Said:
""We have no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the 11 September attacks."

I can tell you What Mike Moore Said:
"Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11."

Ask anyone- if Mike Moore and George Bush Ever agree on anything that has to do with 9/11. It must be true.

Again- more information you can google. Only Fox/MSNBC viewers even talk about Saddam and Osama and Hamas. As if People don't know Hamas, like Al Jazeera, has been entirely slammed and distorted. I have no problem with the mission of mainstream Hamas. I definitely take issue with how they do business, but like the IRA- they exist for a good reason.


This one is rich. Just because the inspectors were in Iraq does not mean that there was co-operation. Just because it was on TV doesn't make it true. Here are the summary articles from the UN itself on how Saddam did NOT co-operate with their resolutions. These are true. I don't see how these UN articles show to the rest of the world Saddam's co-operation with inspections.
Did you seriously say I had partisan Links? And then link to a Group Called Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq? All your links from ONE source- Thats real reasonable. Even if the source couldn't be discredited in the eyes of at least half the people who view it.



What happened on 9/11 as well as the bombings in Madrid and London were horrible acts.
Going forward would you rather have us fight the fight on the terrorists ground or would you rather have it fought on our ground?

:twisted: Neo-Con Alert! :twisted: please step away from the voting booth!
If you SERIOUSLY believe that we can "take the fight to the terrorists" garbage you are definitely A Fox News Loyalist and right wing troll. If you didn't just mean what you wrote- then I will accept some sort of reasonable correction. There weren't any terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. The people there are Loyalists. We would do the same thing and mock being called terrorists for defending our own cities and towns. Seriously guy.

Personally, I don't want to think that everytime I drive downtown Chicago that some terrorist act is going to happen in front of eyes.
Yeah- I live in Connecticut- In between Boston And New York- Tell me about Terrorists Acts- Please. I am always amazed At people who live in the "Burbs" worried about "terrorist acts". You have been cojoled by fear sir.


Any dope that believes this is well, a dope. While it is not out of the realm of possibility that some terrorist organization has nuclear material, they don't have the way or means to convert that into a device big enough to cause a mushroom cloud like the ones that darkened Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Dirty bomb, maybe, but that doesn't require anything to detonate the material to critical mass to cause a nuclear explosion. All they need is some C4 to help spread the material around to cause radioactive contamination. For the terrorist cells in America to work, all they need to do is start with simple things like night club, bar, or cafe bombings. No massive amount of death needs to happen. Just enough to make people think if they want to leave the house for that cup of coffee or that drink with a friend.

Proof of my previous assertion about you being controlled by fear.
Yes- all of this has been true for decades. If it took 9/11 to make you realize this, I am sorry. Lots of us knew the realness of these truths long before 9/11.


Ahmad Chalabi. Weak arguement here. The guy was all but discredited a year and a half ago. He made just enough inroads though be be the interim Oil Minister. A position he will not hold once the new government there takes over. You've got to pick someone better who actually matters now.

Not true at all. Chalabi and Bush go way back. Nice attempted dismissal because the truth really stings. Read the Daily Kos or any other blog and its pretty well known Chalabi is still way in the Game. He is in control of the golden spicket right now and you are seriously trying to marginalize him. Unbelievable.


Sadr and Casey Sheehan. Can you please provide a link that shows that Sadr's men were directly responsible for killing Casey Sheehan.

Sure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm
Just look up Spc. Casey Sheehan. Killed when there units were attacked with RPGS in Baghdad. Its is widely known that Those Shiite Forces with RPGS were SADR's Men. Why do you think they called it Sadr City? Know any other Shiite Clerics in Baghdad with Men with RPGs taking out US Soldiers? Got any links?


Titan, CACI, and Blackwater. Jesus, talk about grabbing the tinfoil hat. Exactly what relevance does Blackwater's African campaigns have anything to do with Iraq.

Tinfoil Hat? I beg your pardon? You think its a great idea to have private citizens with weapons and armor operate in free fire zone without any accountability other than to their corporate bottom line? They are just another way for Defense Contractors to make Billions. Nice AGAIN attempt at dismissal because you call it "tin foil" I mean- if it were Tinfoil-ish at all maybe but it actaully matters, regardless of what you'd like to believe.

And what relevance?
Way more than what Clinton had to do with Darfur. Blackwater took part in evil *** **** for money in Africa- they worked for the people who cut the hands off little boys. Remember? Why do you think they call them Mercs?


Blackwater is security provider for governments and high ranking officals. Jesus.

Blackwater is a Mercenary Firm. Soldiers of Fortune. Not accountable to anything other than their corporate bottom line. At best they make up for a Shitty war plan- at worst the put our troops in harm every minute of every day.

You might as well throw Executive Outcome's campaigns in Sierra Leone and Angola to this list since it has nothing to do with Iraq. Blackwater is contracted by the government to provide security at certain buildings so Army or Marine forces don't have to.

No- because reservists usually do that sort of thing and they are all busy in Iraq these days. I am unaware of EO's involvement in Iraq. Blackwater however are hired mercenaries who operate with no accountability and that is unnacceptable and un-american. We do not have privatized military. We have a Gov't military and this is America.


Considering that most Blackwater employee's are ex-Special Forces, does it suprise you that they are well armed and well trained? Plus they are in a combat zone. Does it suprise you that they might actually put up a fight instead of run away. They are paid to protect you know. CACI is a defense contracted firm that has provided IT work for the government for 40 years now. They have been alleged to perform interrogations for the military as well as participated in prisoner abuse. Care to provide an accurate and credible link for this allegation? Titan is another firm alleged to be involved with prisoner abuse. It's a firm that sells intelligence to the military. Again, credible links would be nice.

HAH! Credible Links! Amazing. "They are paid to protect you know." You know you sound like a Public Relations guy and it makes me sick. It doesn't matter what "ex" special forces supposedly make up these Merc Firms. They wouldn't even be overthere if the President had listened to every general with a clue who said we needed at least 300k men to meet the standars of the Powell Doctrine. Don't go to war without a plan to win.
But no- we have your beloved Rumsfeld "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." Unbelievable. We don't have adequate armor, bullets, or troops and YOU ask me for links why you ignore all of the death and the things that actually matter

Finally - Cindy Sheehan. Can you please explain to me why she gets to have her voice heard over everyone elses? There are over 1700 greiving
mothers out there but not all of them agree with Cindy Sheehan.

Her voice doesn't get heard more than everyone else.
She has been the biggest target of the Right Wing Tactical sludge. She has been called everything under the sun. Its all tactical like you are though.
Nice Job Mr. Rove. Have your spinsters go after Cindy, Have your media cover her extensively. Then cry foul when she gets the coverage calling the media liberal. And all the while laugh your *** off knowing that yet again Karl Rove was able to control the focus of the American People long enough to save his own ***. He should be held responsible for what he did. Nothing the GOP does is ever unplanned. You can be sure the reason Cindy is getting any press at all is because Karl Rove wants it to be so.
This isn't tinfoil its the Proven Rove tactics that he is known for and even brags about.


She does not speak for all mothers out there. She speaks for herself. She invokes the names of the dead troops to further her cause even when asked not to (http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=3723057&nav=0s3ddLEI). I loved her statement in a speech about getting Israel out of Palestine

Too bad she never said she speaked for all mothers. She actually encouraged others to do whatever helped them cope.
Even Bush's Hand Picked Mom (who didn't actually loose anyone in Iraq)
Tammy Pruit was supportive of Cindy's right to protest and respond.

KXAN what a joke. I heard people discredit that all day. Even cindy said that couldn't be further from the truth. She never said it.

What bumbl**** austin reporting. Boo...


That was great. Read the speech. She sounds like a loon. She's against the war and has openly stated it.

Wow- you are really enjoying this aren't you? That's sick. Attacking her too, as if you would be normal ned if your son died to establish Sharia Law in a country that never attacked the US. Hmm... now are YOU trying to speak for all mothers. I see...

She takes smear tactics in the name of her dead son (she did say that Senator John Warner "fell in lockstep behind his Führer" - or should we say Bush?). I have a better idea. If you want your organization to really take off, then take the high ground. Why give the right any fuel for the fire to come after you? If you make valid points and try to argue what facts are out there, then no one can touch you. But start calling the sitting president the Führer, making foreign policy for Israel, cater you camp, etc, then expect the attacks.

Let it all out- Get all that yucky propaganda out of you. My my what black lungs you have from consuming all that hate and misery. Feel better?


I feel sorry for the woman.

I can tell after that rant you feel for Cindy.


She lost her son and that cannot be easy to deal with but do yourself and your sons memory a favor, do your protesting with respect and higher moral grounds and no one will come after you.

Again- the only reason that people are putting words into Cindy's mouth and trying to fake empathy are those people who are perfectly happy to ignore the realities of the war (enough to defend in any way its founders) and those who would rather have us all focus on Terri Schiavo and Cindy Sheehan than Tom Delay and Karl Rove. You can't fool all the people all the time.


And no, I didn't vote for Bush and I don't support the war. I support our troops, but not the war.

Really? You haven't said anything in your posts that proves this? Have any links pal?


I do support good debates instead of ones filled with halfass commentary that I could get from Air America Radio......that is if I could find a city that actually carries Air America Radio....
Love the parting pot-shot at Air America. I learned something long ago.
Always question the source, but if the information is true- the source no longer matters. "halfass commentary you could get on air america" very nice, very predictable. If you are defending the president, trashing cindy sheehan and Air America- YOU PROBABLY are a Republican. There has been tremendous growth for that network. I like some of their content- alot of it I wouldn't listen to with YOUR ears.

Seriously.. why so much GIVE ME links.... alot of this is common knoweledge. Especially about the war...

And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD-
How come every last one of you guys refuses to address the casualties and costs of war. 100,000+ people dead. 300+ Tons of DU in the atmosphere.

You find a few things you can maybe argue with. And never respond to the rest. The 7 trillion dollar debt, for crying out loud. You had to bring Clinton into your argument, Trash Air America AND Bash Cindy Sheehan in one post. How Partisan Neo-Con GOP does it get?

Jack B.

"FOR WHAT NOBLE CAUSE DID CASEY SHEEHAN HAVE TO DIE?"
That is the only question Cindy and 57% of America are asking.

I know, I know more links... you shouldn't have been so typical or I would have given you links.

Bush is a Terrorist- its undoubtable that he will go down in history as the worst leader this Country has ever suffered through. He is a failure. I don't even hate him. It's just a shame we had to take an 8 year, 10 trillion dollar,
100,000+ dead person detour from where we seemed to be headed in 92.

<sigh>

Jack B.

You do realize you ask for proof to things that The President himself my not be aware of RE: Titan. Asking for mere links as if they alone would make you believe it all the sudden is a sign of gullibility.

[cid92]

Gotta keep this short cause i need to bolt for work.

I'm more than aware that the Bush family is tied to families in Saudi Arabia as well as the Bin Laden family. You're right, any Google search can provide tons of info, posting at least one link to back your assertion makes it harder for someone to come in and say you are smoking it.

The Darfur mess. The mentioning of Rwanda was not a diversionaty tactic. It's pointing out the fact that we did nothing when it became full blown genocide over there. NOTHING. I think news footage of bodies laying on the streets and floating down the rivers was intelligence enough that something bad was going on there. Yet you blame this administration for not doing anything at all in Dafur with all the evidence of the problems there. If anything the current administration is following in those footsteps of past administrations, both republican and democrat. But it goes to stand that if we step in over in Darfur, then all future administrations and this countries troops will bear the burden of having to go into countries to solve their civil war or genocide issues. When troops start dying in other countries because we have taken a policy of stepping into other countries in the middle of genodice campaigns are you going to be as strongly opinionated against that as well?

WMD proof - It was flawed. It seriously needs to be looked at to figure out why it was flawed and how it got us into this mess in Iraq. I wish I had something more to give you. Instead we have 1700 plus dead Americans, a growing debt, an economy that has no clue where it is at right now, and a general lack of say, good moral in this country. We have become a more polarized nation in the past eight years than at anytime I can remember.

Osama and Saddam. I personally find it hard to believe that there wasn't some kind of link between these two - please note the word "personally". Maybe not a sit down and have tea to discuss the rivers of blood that the American's will shed for them, but something. Money, use of land for training, soldiers to do some fighting. Problem is, proving something like that is next to impossible but you never know what might show up. They may not be linked right at the hip but there has to be something there and my opinion is that there is something there. Much like your opinion is that there is not anything there.

CACI. The group may may be weird but they simply re-created the UN resolutions that are grounded in fact. Kinda funny that an alleged neo-con in your eyes would site a website that doesn't agree with some neo-con views on Iraq. Since you didn't like those links here are some of the PDF files of the same documents. They come from the UN's docuement website at documents.UN.org

http://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N92/486/45/img/N9248645.pdf?OpenElement

http://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N98/263/65/pdf/N9826365.pdf?OpenElement

http://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N97/283/87/pdf/N9728387.pdf?OpenElement

You still didn't answer the question that if these documents exist, then how is it that "Saddam wasn't working with the inspectors. Wrong also- I saw the inspectors on the TV with my own 2 eyes. The rest of the world saw it too." IF he was working with the inspectors then there should be glowing reports on how he allowed full access to every building, every room, and access to every scientist in Iraq. I have yet to find those documents.

The reality of the situation is that it doesn't take much at all to simply bomb say a Starbucks or a bar. Any goofball could do it. I was simply stating that the people that beileve that there will be a full blown nuclear device detonating in a major US city anytime soon from a terrorist group is not likely. It's more likely to be the small bombings. Do you not agree? What better way to make noise on American soil. Doesn't require special training or much cash.

Crap, time is slipping away on me here.

Cindy Sheehan. You're right, the right has gone out of their way to debunk this woman. Personally, yes I think she's a bit off when reading what she writes in her blog or the speeches she gives. I am entitled to that view point without being labelled a neo-con troll. I just think had she run this whole thing a touch differently, what would anyone have to say about it? Yes there will be pro-war faction that will argue against her but if she argues the facts or just argues the case of no more bloodshed without injecting things like "get Israel out of Palastine", her case is a little more rock solid against the right stone throwers.

Sorry no links to prove I didn't vote for W. I voted Michael Badnarik. I don't believe in the two party system in this country anymore. It's a complete and utter joke. Two sides that have more in common but play the America public every election. Shocking note here, I voted for Obama here in Illinois - again no links for that. Alan Keyes needed to be soundly defeated since he is a walking moron. Come on now, any hard core neo-con would vote straight ticket no matter what. Just because I hold many conservative values does not mean I am a neo-con as your so called :twisted:alert:twisted: spouted off. Great way to label me as something you think I am when I didn't once call you out as being anything. Not once in my post did I personally come after you unlike yourself that degraded to the "neo-con troll", "public relations guy", "black lunged", and "pal" - which I am most certainly not your pal. Talk about some venom. Dare I say typical liberal assult? Sure why not, you took the liberty of taking more shots than that at me :cool:. As for the parting shot on Air America, look back at some of your postings. You have to admit, they may seem to others a touch towards the political liberal leaning side - please note I did not personally call you a liberal. I mearly pointed out that some may think of you that way based on your posts. How about I toss in there the ilks of Hannity, Limbaugh, Fox News, and any other leaning conservative group or person as being people who spout off biased crap and the masses feed off of it. I stay away from major "news" channels on the TV cause to me they bias one side or the other. In fact I pretty much stick to not watching TV except for baseball, football, Rescue Me, Battlestar Galactica, and the occasional shows on Discovery or History channel.

[FOSCO]

Sorry no links to prove I didn't vote for W. I voted Michael Badnarik.

Cid,

You have just earned yourself a dollar! After 4 years of Bush, if you did not vote for Kerry in the 2004 Election, then your vote was for Bush. One of the only reasons Bush is in office is because of people like you.

PM me your paypal info and I will gladly send you a dollar!

In fact I pretty much stick to not watching TV except for baseball, football, Rescue Me, Battlestar Galactica, and the occasional shows on Discovery or History channel.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/images/20011221-nerds-large.gif


Fosco 8) (a nerd)

[kickasspodcast]

I can entirely appreciate the nature and the direction of your last post.

As far as Darfur- Africa has been and is pretty much
a political Black Hole. No real "political" gain has ever really been
obtained by going into the most troubled of all Continents. That's
the reason Bush didn't want 'waste his time'. Its the same reason
most every Politician avoids Africa in general.

As far as you being a Neo-Con etc...
IT does however seem highly mentionable when someone says these kinda things:

-Bringing Clinton and Carter into your argument for no real reason
-Saddam wasn't working with the Inspectors.
-Tatan, CACI, Blackwater, & Triple Canopy are really OK for our Guys
-Blackwater's Crimes in Africa don't really mean anything
-Saddam and Osama were working together
-Air America Sucks/is Halfassed
-The Press is Giving Cindy Sheehan Unfair attention
-Cindy Sheehan is a Loon
-We have to take the fight to the terrorists.
-Saddam and WMD'S? (this is the biggest joke of all btw)

I am really sorry if I called you a Neo-con and you are not.

But considering everyting you say and how you make your arguement? It sounds like GOP talking points. Sorry, but it does.

Am I liberal? Maybe? I am pro-Gun, anti-war & for Freedom.. I don't know what that makes me.

All the private Mercs (CACI/Triple Canopy etc) they may have done some great things and some terrible things. But the fact that they are over there both puts our troops at risk and is proof that Bush did not have a plan to win the peace.

If you are still talking about WMD's I don't know what else to say. Iraq is a Secular nation that Never attacked the US. Frankly I don't care if they did or didn't have WMD's they never used them on the US or any US installation.
The fact is, we never let Hussein finish. We gave up on the process because
of poor leadership.

You are still looking for ducuments and glowing reports on inspection for WMD's? Funny, I am more interested in finding WMD's like the inspectors were instead of the documents. Saddam did release like 13,000 pages- did you read all of em? He also turned over Al Samud weapons that were destroyed.

The fact of the matter is, the people of Iraq are less free now than they were before we came. Sorry but its true.

I do like the way the conversation 'seems' to be headed, maybe its just the Tone. Thank you for being reasonable in your last reply

At least its Civil.

Its not Perfect but the 2 party system is what we have. Its also lead to the rise of the Greatest Nation in the planet in just under 300 years. No- it isn't pefect- but it forces people to work together for change and compromise.

AS I said before-
I am sorry if you felt I 'labeled' you a neo-con.

BUT- considering the points you chose to make and how often I have heard them made by those on the extreme right.....

And yeah- again, I do consider myself a Liberal. I am for your right to disagree with me. ;)


Jack B.

[volwrath]

Wow- I burried you with facts, information, events, and even profound photography and the best you have is the transcripts from a Good Morning America Interview about throwing Medals? What does any of that really prove anyway.
Kerry served his country. Its not fair that you discount his service because of what he may or may not have done with his or someone elses medals. It's what those medals mean.. Kerry is by FAR not a perfect guy or Candidate. BUT he doesn't have 1/100th of the flaws that Bush does.

Interesting. You buried me with facts, but then say he doesnt have 1/100ths of the flaws that Bush has. Good FACTS you got there. How did you quantify this?

Why bother even mentioning the 7 trillion dollar debt, 9/11, Stingy With the Tsunami, The war in Iraq, Giving up on Finding Bin Laden, Patriot Act, John Bolton, Terri Schiavo, The Real ID Act, Abstinence Only Sex Education(rofl), Big Pharma Wet Dreams, John Roberts, Endless Tax Cuts to Corporations, Privatize Social Security Scam, And as of 8/29/05: Bush's Aproval Rating: 37% Actually Lower than Nixon's in the Summer of 74'
...why bother mentioning any of this when you don't even want to comment on the masses of other facts and events and assertions I have thus far made.


Actually the original thread was on who voted for Bush, and why. You have gone absoultely off topic with your rants and 'facts'. You give a link to a netherlans website where an anonymous source posts pictures and declare it depleted uranium from US shells. This may or may not be true, but at this point I an willing to believe it is a fact. What do you mean by big pharma wet dreams? more facts?



"I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones."
He and thousands of other Soldiers.
And then...
"all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down."
You see?
He just said right there in no uncertain terms- that he and 'thousands of soliders' were 'ordered by the US Gov from the Top down to commit atrocities'. It seems pretty clear to me. You will only overlook this it you really want to. ;)


Just because superiors tell you to commit a heinous act does not absolve you of your blame if you do.

Telling Someone they are lying is not an attack. Nice try at mischaracterizing my attempts to clarify things from my point of view.

You didnt say I was lying. Go read your own posts.


<In A Steve Dupont Impersonating Clint Eastwood Voice>
Why are you calling me juvenile in my postings? What about them is Juvenile? How do you find me Juvenile? Do you mean I am youthful? I will in most cases take that as a compliment, but I used to live off Davidson in East Nashville for a while, Used to go to the Station Inn Alot Also, have alot of good friends down there. When I lived there it wasn't polite to trash another man because of his age or because you think he is juvenile. Unless you can prove him wrong or back up your story- just walk away or move along cowboy.
</In A Steve Dupont Impersonating Clint Eastwood Voice>


What does living in nashville have to do anything. I know lots of adults who are intellectually immature. So its not polite to trash someone because you think he is juvenile? Why not?


Also if you don't vote to STOP the war- You can't seriously claim to Care about it. If you do nothing to put the fire out you might as well have set it.

Jack B.

(will be expecting a bit more effort next time if you don't mind plz sir.)


More facts I suppose. Just like you think the Iraqi people have less freedom now then they did under saddam? Where are the facts for this? How many people did saddam send to an early grave? Whats the facts on that? I am not necessarily condoning the Iraq war, but we are there so we better deal with it. Don't forget your leader Kerry voted for the war as well. he even stated that in hindsight knowing what he knew then, he would do it again. Of course he recanted that later.

Also don't forget that Kerry voted FOR The despicable Patriot Act, not to mention wrote some of it. But don't let the facts get in the way...

I would give you more effort this time, but I have better things to do, like go to a fantasy football draft. I don't doubt your sincerity, but think you are misguided

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind....

[kickasspodcast]

Wow- I burried you with facts, information, events, and even profound photography and the best you have is the transcripts from a Good Morning America Interview about throwing Medals? What does any of that really prove anyway.
Kerry served his country. Its not fair that you discount his service because of what he may or may not have done with his or someone elses medals. It's what those medals mean.. Kerry is by FAR not a perfect guy or Candidate. BUT he doesn't have 1/100th of the flaws that Bush does.

Interesting. You buried me with facts, but then say he doesnt have 1/100ths of the flaws that Bush has. Good FACTS you got there. How did you quantify this?

Why bother even mentioning the 7 trillion dollar debt, 9/11, Stingy With the Tsunami, The war in Iraq, Giving up on Finding Bin Laden, Patriot Act, John Bolton, Terri Schiavo, The Real ID Act, Abstinence Only Sex Education(rofl), Big Pharma Wet Dreams, John Roberts, Endless Tax Cuts to Corporations, Privatize Social Security Scam, And as of 8/29/05: Bush's Aproval Rating: 37% Actually Lower than Nixon's in the Summer of 74'
...why bother mentioning any of this when you don't even want to comment on the masses of other facts and events and assertions I have thus far made.


Actually the original thread was on who voted for Bush, and why. You have gone absoultely off topic with your rants and 'facts'. You give a link to a netherlans website where an anonymous source posts pictures and declare it depleted uranium from US shells. This may or may not be true, but at this point I an willing to believe it is a fact. What do you mean by big pharma wet dreams? more facts?



"I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones."
He and thousands of other Soldiers.
And then...
"all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down."
You see?
He just said right there in no uncertain terms- that he and 'thousands of soliders' were 'ordered by the US Gov from the Top down to commit atrocities'. It seems pretty clear to me. You will only overlook this it you really want to. ;)


Just because superiors tell you to commit a heinous act does not absolve you of your blame if you do.

Telling Someone they are lying is not an attack. Nice try at mischaracterizing my attempts to clarify things from my point of view.

You didnt say I was lying. Go read your own posts.


<In A Steve Dupont Impersonating Clint Eastwood Voice>
Why are you calling me juvenile in my postings? What about them is Juvenile? How do you find me Juvenile? Do you mean I am youthful? I will in most cases take that as a compliment, but I used to live off Davidson in East Nashville for a while, Used to go to the Station Inn Alot Also, have alot of good friends down there. When I lived there it wasn't polite to trash another man because of his age or because you think he is juvenile. Unless you can prove him wrong or back up your story- just walk away or move along cowboy.
</In A Steve Dupont Impersonating Clint Eastwood Voice>


What does living in nashville have to do anything. I know lots of adults who are intellectually immature. So its not polite to trash someone because you think he is juvenile? Why not?


Also if you don't vote to STOP the war- You can't seriously claim to Care about it. If you do nothing to put the fire out you might as well have set it.

Jack B.

(will be expecting a bit more effort next time if you don't mind plz sir.)


More facts I suppose. Just like you think the Iraqi people have less freedom now then they did under saddam? Where are the facts for this? How many people did saddam send to an early grave? Whats the facts on that? I am not necessarily condoning the Iraq war, but we are there so we better deal with it. Don't forget your leader Kerry voted for the war as well. he even stated that in hindsight knowing what he knew then, he would do it again. Of course he recanted that later.

Also don't forget that Kerry voted FOR The despicable Patriot Act, not to mention wrote some of it. But don't let the facts get in the way...

I would give you more effort this time, but I have better things to do, like go to a fantasy football draft. I don't doubt your sincerity, but think you are misguided

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind....


Just like you think the Iraqi people have less freedom now then they did under saddam? Where are the facts for this?

Ok, the short answer:
They are on the Brink of becoming an Iranian style Islamic Republic. That style of Govt is far more oppressive than even the Secular Dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.

The verbose Answer.
Are you serious? you really don't have a clue which way is up and which way is down do you? You taken a look at whats happening in Iraq with their 'constitution'? Do you know what Sharia Law is? Are you aware that Iraq was entirely Secular under Saddam? Are you not aware of U.S. Rape rooms, and torture rooms in Cellblocks 1A and 1B in Abu Ghraib? Wait till the Videos are released to the press. Then will you believe? Not to mention there is no electricity, people aren't working, its utter chaos and we made it that way.
We have killed 100,000 people with our bombs and infected whole populations' DNA with Depleted Uranium but of course someone on your side would never mention these 2 things. Now you are working the "Saddam was a bad guy Angle". Reverse justification is never a good idea man.

You keep asking for facts about what 60% of the country understands only makes you look more fringe. Google the ****, you can find it. You don't even wanna recognize civilian casualties and explain away Bush's carelessness. Maybe you feel guilty?

This thread was for people who could come out and say why they voted for Bush and Fosco would send them a dollar. Nobody is required to continue any discussion at all. Takes 2 to tango.

BTW- you nearly make me crazy talking bout Saddam being a terrorist. When did he attack us? What can you prove? Where are YOUR links that prove we had any real justification for supporting Bush or the War.

;)

Have fun!

JAck B.

Check out the new show!
http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc27.mp3

[volwrath]

Ok, the short answer:
They are on the Brink of becoming an Iranian style Islamic Republic. That style of Govt is far more oppressive than even the Secular Dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.

The verbose Answer.
Are you serious? you really don't have a clue which way is up and which way is down do you? You taken a look at whats happening in Iraq with their 'constitution'? Do you know what Sharia Law is? Are you aware that Iraq was entirely Secular under Saddam? Are you not aware of U.S. Rape rooms, and torture rooms in Cellblocks 1A and 1B in Abu Ghraib? Wait till the Videos are released to the press. Then will you believe? Not to mention there is no electricity, people aren't working, its utter chaos and we made it that way.
We have killed 100,000 people with our bombs and infected whole populations' DNA with Depleted Uranium but of course someone on your side would never mention these 2 things. Now you are working the "Saddam was a bad guy Angle". Reverse justification is never a good idea man.

You keep asking for facts about what 60% of the country understands only makes you look more fringe. Google the ****, you can find it. You don't even wanna recognize civilian casualties and explain away Bush's carelessness. Maybe you feel guilty?

This thread was for people who could come out and say why they voted for Bush and Fosco would send them a dollar. Nobody is required to continue any discussion at all. Takes 2 to tango.

BTW- you nearly make me crazy talking bout Saddam being a terrorist. When did he attack us? What can you prove? Where are YOUR links that prove we had any real justification for supporting Bush or the War.

;)

Have fun!

JAck B.

Check out the new show!
http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc27.mp3

OOOOOOOOhh there you go with your facts again. never mind you can't substantiate a single word you say. [personal attack removed by moderator]

When did I say Saddam was a terrorist? I said he killed many people..http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

Human rights groups believe about 300,000 people were killed during Saddam's 24-year rule, which ended when U.S.-led forces toppled his regime in 2003.

Don't let facts get in the way of your fantasyland.

I will be polite enough to give you the last word.

[kickasspodcast]

When did I say Saddam was a terrorist? I said he killed many people..http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

Yeah- thats a big risky thing to say. Do you even care that we gave him the support and power to kill all those people?


Human rights groups believe about 300,000 people were killed during Saddam's 24-year rule, which ended when U.S.-led forces toppled his regime in 2003.

300,000 people in 24 years? Again- we are the ones who supported him to become the dictator in the 1st place. Why do you keep ignoring this or explaining it away? 300k people in 24 years? That's nothing compared to what Bush has done in 3. Saddam couldn't afford Depleted Uranium. Which you also ignore.
I have posted links to depleted uranium and you say nothing. Wonder why?


Look dude-

Here is where I stand.

Either you totally slam George Bush in all ways and **** the War and pretty much Everything Bush does- OR you are completely unreasonable and not WILLING TO RESEARCH YOUR OWN OPINIONS.

Ask me for facts? You are so convinced by one or 2 urls are you? I am a bit more discerning from that and respect these issues enough to know they cannot be summarily proved in one url or two. Sorry Charlie.

You keep ignoring Iraqi Citizen Casualties and also Depleted Uranium. these are truly the most important part of everything. That and the formation of a Theocracy in Iraq. BAD BAD BAD! Not good at all man! how can you defend any of it? Seriously. There is no way to justify them. Where is the hunt for bin laden? Seriously man. Get Real.



Don't let facts get in the way of your fantasyland.

I do not appreciate the Tone. Don't pretend you have disproven any of my assertions. I am trying to have a discussion. If you aren't up to the discussion don't ask me to catch you up to speed.


I will be polite enough to give you the last word.

BTW- the last word thing is funny. Bill O'reilly says that to everyone he interviews.

As far as Living in Nashville. I just respect the people there and am thankful most are more respectful than you seem to be. Its ashame when the anti-war people get slammed isn't it? I mean- I am only against the Pro-War, Pro-Death, Anti-Choice, Anti-Privacy Guy? Doesn't seem to be too unreasonable to me. But I guess I am wrong.

I'll Give you a few links ok?

Presidents Aproval Rating:
http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2005/Jan/EEN41efe899411ca.html

Media Matters:
http://mediamatters.org/

Faces of the Fallen:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

More than a Number:
http://morethananumber.org/

Operation Truth:
http://www.optruth.org/


Unless you are slamming the war you have no idea what's really going on. Seriously if you say you support the war, I may love you as a person, but you really are clueless. More Irans are NOT good for the Middle East people.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-07-20-voa60.cfm


Some more links:
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Silent-Genocide25mar04.htm
http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive2005/depleted_uranium_iraq_afghanistan_balkans.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B93DF501-832A-423B-9E33-5F4325676A46.htm
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1927.cfm
http://www.oilempire.us/depleted-uranium.html
http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
http://costofwar.com/
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GH25Ak04.html
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/08/army_specialist.html
http://www.alternet.org/story/18193/
http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/the_clipboard/008681.php

Look forward to everyone slamming the Source. Love the Rovian Tactics. I mean its only natural right?

Unless Anyone Can Rationalize the Deaths of the innocent Iraqi People or the near 2000 dead Americans or the need for tons of Depleted Uranium to be released into the atmosphere, there is no way you can do anything but protest this administration. Its not even partisan to protest war and needless slaughter and yet I am being called that. Wow.
Depleted Uranium has a halflife of 4.7 million years.
I would love for someone to try and answer the same question Cindy Sheehan is asking:

For what noble cause did our soldiers die?
Is that such a freakin unreasonable question?

[Art a GoGo]

It's the post that won't die! Let's call him a liberator and liar and called it a day. Time to turn out the lights on this one.

[jimk]

I would love for someone to try and answer the same question Cindy Sheehan is asking:

For what noble cause did our soldiers die?
Is that such a freakin unreasonable question?

How about we ask an Iraqi? I would expect even you to admit that he might know more than you about what is happening in Iraq. I can't imagine even you would presume to know more about Iraq than the people who live there. I am certain you have more respect than to call this guy a liar and a nazi and whatever other names have been tossed around lately.

He answers the question quite plainly and with great logic and passion. Go talk to him about it...no need to talk to us. (http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/08/message-to-cindy-sheehan.html) No need to respond here: You can comment directly to him on his site. Go tell him how wrong he is.

A message to Cindy Sheehan
I realize how tragic your loss is and I know how much pain there is crushing your heart and I know the darkness that suddenly came to wrap your life and wipe away your dreams and I do feel the heat of your tears that won't dry until you find the answers to your question; why you lost your loved one?

I have heard your story and I understand that you have the full right to ask people to stand by your side and support your cause. At the beginning I told myself, this is yet another woman who lost a piece of her heart and the questions of war, peace and why are killing her everyday. To be frank to you the first thing I thought of was like "why should I listen or care to answer when there are thousands of other women in America, Iraq and Afghanistan who lost a son or a husband or a brother…�

But today I was looking at your picture and I saw in your eyes a persistence, a great pain and a torturing question; why?

I know how you feel Cindy, I lived among the same pains for 35 years but worse than that was the fear from losing our loved ones at any moment. Even while I'm writing these words to you there are feelings of fear, stress, and sadness that interrupt our lives all the time but in spite of all that I'm sticking hard to hope which if I didn't have I would have died years ago.

Ma'am, we asked for your nation's help and we asked you to stand with us in our war and your nation's act was (and still is) an act of ultimate courage and unmatched sense of humanity.
Our request is justified, death was our daily bread and a million Iraqi mothers were expecting death to knock on their doors at any second to claim someone from their families.
Your face doesn't look strange to me at all; I see it everyday on endless numbers of Iraqi women who were struck by losses like yours.

Our fellow country men and women were buried alive, cut to pieces and thrown in acid pools and some were fed to the wild dogs while those who were lucky enough ran away to live like strangers and the Iraqi mother was left to grieve one son buried in an unfound grave and another one living far away who she might not get to see again.

We did nothing to deserve all that suffering, well except for a dream we had; a dream of living like normal people do.

We cried out of joy the day your son and his comrades freed us from the hands of the devil and we went to the streets not believing that the nightmare is over.
We practiced our freedom first by kicking and burning the statues and portraits of the hateful idol who stole 35 years from the life of a nation.
For the first time air smelled that beautiful, that was the smell of freedom.

The mothers went to break the bars of cells looking for the ones they lost 5, 12 or 20 years ago and other women went to dig the land with their bare hand searching for a few bones they can hold in their arms after they couldn't hold them when they belonged to a living person.

I recall seeing a woman on TV two years ago, she was digging through the dirt with her hands. There was no definite grave in there as the whole place was one large grave but she seemed willing to dig the whole place looking for her two brothers who disappeared from earth 24 years ago when they were dragged from their colleges to a chamber of hell.

Her tears mixed with the dirt of the grave and there were journalists asking her about what her brothers did wrong and she was screaming "I don't know, I don't know. They were only college students. They didn't murder anyone, they didn't steal, and they didn't hurt anyone in their lives. All I want to know is the place of their grave".

Why was this woman chosen to lose her dear ones? Why you? Why did a million women have to go through the same pain?

We did not choose war for the sake of war itself and we didn't sacrifice a million lives for fun! We could've accepted our jailor and kept living in our chains for the rest of our lives but it's freedom ma'am.
Freedom is not an American thing and it's not an Iraqi thing, it's what unites us as human beings. We refuse all kinds of restrictions and that's why we fought and still fighting everyday in spite of the swords in the hands of the cavemen who want us dead or slaves for their evil masters.

You are free to go and leave us alone but what am I going to tell your million sisters in Iraq? Should I ask them to leave Iraq too? Should I leave too? And what about the eight millions who walked through bombs to practice their freedom and vote? Should they leave this land too?
Is it a cursed land that no one should live in? Why is it that we were chosen to live in all this pain, why me, why my people, why you?

But I am not leaving this land because the bad guys are not going to leave us or you to live in peace. They are the same ones who flew the planes to kill your people in New York.
I ask you in the name of God or whatever you believe in; do not waste your son's blood.
We here have decided to avenge humanity, you and all the women who lost their loved ones.
Take a look at our enemy Cindy, look closely at the hooded man holding the sword and if you think he's right then I will back off and support your call.

We live in pain and grief everyday, every hour, every minute; all the horrors of the powers of darkness have been directed at us and I don't know exactly when am I going to feel safe again, maybe in a year, maybe two or even ten; I frankly don't know but I don't want to lose hope and faith.

We are in need for every hand that can offer some help. Please pray for us, I know that God listens to mothers' prayers and I call all the women on earth to pray with you for peace in this world.

Your son sacrificed his life for a very noble cause…No, he sacrificed himself for the most precious value in this existence; that is freedom.

His blood didn't go in vain; your son and our brethren are drawing a great example of selflessness.
God bless his free soul and God bless the souls of his comrades who are fighting evil.
God bless the souls of Iraqis who suffered and died for the sake of freedom.
God bless all the freedom lovers on earth.

[volwrath]

Deleted due to caught enough fish

[cid92]

Sorry no links to prove I didn't vote for W. I voted Michael Badnarik.

Cid,

You have just earned yourself a dollar! After 4 years of Bush, if you did not vote for Kerry in the 2004 Election, then your vote was for Bush. One of the only reasons Bush is in office is because of people like you.

PM me your paypal info and I will gladly send you a dollar!

In fact I pretty much stick to not watching TV except for baseball, football, Rescue Me, Battlestar Galactica, and the occasional shows on Discovery or History channel.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/images/20011221-nerds-large.gif


Fosco 8) (a nerd)

Keep the buck. My PayPal account isn't setup with my bank account anyways. Thanks for the offer though.

And yes, Battlestar Galactica. Total nerd show and sadly it is probably one of the best shows on TV right now. Decent drama, good storylines, aliens, **** blowing up, come on.....what more do you want :D

Edited to add that my vote for Badnarik had no bearing on the outcome of who won the state of Illinois. Thanks to the city proper of Chicago, Kerry won the election hands down in this state. My single vote out of 36,130 for other candidates did not influence the election here. Even a vote for Cookie Monster in Ohio would have had no influence on the election. Of the tallied votes, 26,993 people voted other in Ohio. Add all of those votes to Kerry's side and he still loses by nearly 100,000 votes. The only state where non-two party voters could have made a difference was in Wisconsin. Kerry won the state but had the 26397 other party voters gone Bush, then Kerry loses. Hell, only 52% of the other voters needed to vote Bush and he would have won the state. Other than that, us other party voters did not get Bush elected to office. Check it out for yourself with the following link. Scroll down and look at the state by state break down of who voted for who:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._election_in_progress

The most interesting number is the total votes:
Bush 62,025,715 50.7%
Kerry 59,025,937 48.3%
Other 1,177,339 1.0%

Take all the Other votes, add them to Kerry's total and he still loses. Again, other voters had no influence on the 2004 election.

[cid92]

OK. Looks like we're past some of the BS and into more open discussion territory. That's one of the problems sometimes is getting to an area where all parties can look and listen at the other party without going off the handle. You don't have to agree at all but listening, discussing, and being generally civil is a helluva lot better than spitting venom. Admittedly when I wrote my first post it was late at night and it got me riled up reading what some call the typical arguements going on about the state of the US today. So I "fought" back with some of the other typical arguments and combined them with some personal thought in a very backhanded effort to show how silly this can get. Probably should have made it more obvious.

Darfur - you hit the nail on the head. It's not politically adventageous to support anything over there so no administration bothers to. Trying to explain to the American public why we have troops dying in a region overrun by civil war or genocide would not be easy. Look back at Somolia. A peacekeeping mission gone bad and it cost the US 19 men. And for what?

As far as you being a Neo-Con etc...
IT does however seem highly mentionable when someone says these kinda things:

-Bringing Clinton and Carter into your argument for no real reason

Please note that I also mentioned the republican administrations of Nixon and Ford as well, not just the dems. The reason I brought everyone into the argument was to simply state that when other genocides have happened in African countries, the administrations at the time did nothing about it. I'm not sure what type of intelligence we had on the terror reign of Idi Amin so maybe Nixon, Ford, and Carter did nothing cause they knew nothing. But the evidence in Rwanda was beared out on the nightly news for the world to see and no one from the Clinton administration right down to the UN did a thing. That's it. Not political at all. Just stating a cold hard fact that hundreds of thousands died and the world let it happen.

-Saddam wasn't working with the Inspectors.

OK. Yes, Saddam worked with the UN inspectors but did so in a manner that was not complete co-operation as was requested by the UN. Hence the reports in the UN's records stating that he did not fully co-operate with inspectors. That is fact. We're arguing semantics on this one.

Tatan, CACI, Blackwater, & Triple Canopy are really OK for our Guys


OK, maybe not good for our guys but if the government has decided to hire these firms I'd rather have the ones outfitted with ex-military than Billy Bob, Joe, and Rufus with their shotguns running around and screaming "neee-high....got me nother one of them A-rabs". Not saying that it is right that groups like Blackwater are there but at least they are professional units even if they are for hire. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. If it means that one of those guys takes a bullet instead of a Marine, fine. Covert op teams and for hire groups have been a way of life in the military since the dawn of time. Governments throughout time have hired groups to help them in battle. Shouldn't be too suprising that the US government does it as well.

Blackwater's Crimes in Africa don't really mean anything

Whatever BW did in Africa really doesn't tie directly to Iraq. All it points out is that they are a for hire group that will go out and do some dirty work for our government. It's not say, securing some diamond field or taking out a tribal leader has directly impacted the outcome of the war in Iraq so far.

Air America Sucks/is Halfassed

Well I think Hannity and Colmes, Limbaugh, Don Imus, and the other left and right wing shows like that are halfasses. I've listened to Air America. I wanted to hear what Al Franken had to say. Having Janine God-Awfulo as a sidekick though was unbearable. Those two spewed so much venom it made me sick. Same goes for the Sean Hannity radio show. If you think Limbaugh is bad, listen to Hannity for a night. Holy ****. At least I can say I've tried to listen to both sides unlike others who would never entertain the idea of learning something about the other side (kinda like hard core religous people that I've run into. They are more than happy to tell you about their belief but when you offer something counter to their belief, they won't listen). Another example was when Michael Moore released F-911, I also rented Faren-Hype 911 and watched both. It was both sides of the story. I figured I had to see both in order to make any relevent comments on them.

Saddam and Osama were working together

As I mentioned, not a direct relationship but something on the side where they don't have to directly ever come into contact. Personally I cannot believe that all of the faction terrorist units around the world don't at least have some common thread other than causing terror. I'm sure that Al Queda would not reject having say a Hamas bomb expert come and work with them on a "special" job. They may not agree religiously but they have the common goal of terror. Then again, maybe these groups like working independant of each other.

-The Press is Giving Cindy Sheehan Unfair attention
-Cindy Sheehan is a Loon

I didn't say it was unfair, I just don't get her, and I don't get why she has become this darling of protest. I think she is a bit out there. Of course she is going to fuel the masses that believe in what she says but if you want to convert the ones that don't believe then send out a coherant, non-objectified, non-personal attack, non-name calling message and guess what, you might win over the people that disagree with you. God forbid someone might use relevant and well-structured arguments to win a debate or argue an ideology. The ones that debate well-structured arguments are the ones that come off looking like morons.

We have to take the fight to the terrorists.
Just something I believe in but it doesn't make me Sean Hannity.

Saddam and WMD'S
He had them in the past and that is fact. Plenty of Kurds died due to some of those weapons. Whether he has them now or not is totally up in the air since we obviously didn't find anything. The plain and simple truth is that he may have actually ditched the weapons in accordance to the UN resolutions but played coy about it since having the weapons is a power tactic against the other countries in the region. Lose those weapons and you become vulnerable to Iran, Syria, Jordan, etc, etc. Make it look like you have the weapons and no one ****s with you.

The funny thing about personal belief and personal opinon is that if you take a stance on a single issue, you get labelled. Sure, I consider myself a Libertarian but I also hold some strong conservative views. That does not make me a neo-con though. No one will ever fully believe in or support the views of the parties that they support. I have yet to find a single democrat or republican that agree's 100%, no questions asked, with their party. I don't even think Al Franken or Sean Hannity do and those are two extreme examples. They may comes close but not 100%. I may hold conservative views but I would never vote republican simply because the "represent" conservative views.

Good to see this become more civil as well. No need to swim in the muck when we both agree that it is fine for us to disagree.

[spacemonkey]

*I will PAYPAL you a dollar if you truthfully admit you voted for Bush and Why. *

First off, I want to say, I havent read a lot of the posts here on the subject, but this is a response to the above..

I voted for George W Bush both times because he was the best man for the job running. Kerry was a flop and an obviously blatant incompetant politician to any with their eyes half open. "John Kerry reporting for duty!" Just don't look into his service record. Bush disclosed his service record.

Bush is a man of conviction and smart enough to surround himself with smart people.

Kerry is a man of conviction who is not afraid to let party opinion carry sway over that conviction. No back bone

Not to say I think Bush is perfect, but he fits my mold better than the others running against him. Fiscal spending needs to be cut, the immigration disaster needs a solution besides any kind of amnesty.

But Bush is the better man for the job. Ask any non-black-hooded Iraqi.

[kickasspodcast]

I would love for someone to try and answer the same question Cindy Sheehan is asking:

For what noble cause did our soldiers die?
Is that such a freakin unreasonable question?

How about we ask an Iraqi? I would expect even you to admit that he might know more than you about what is happening in Iraq. I can't imagine even you would presume to know more about Iraq than the people who live there. I am certain you have more respect than to call this guy a liar and a nazi and whatever other names have been tossed around lately.

He answers the question quite plainly and with great logic and passion. Go talk to him about it...no need to talk to us. (http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/08/message-to-cindy-sheehan.html) No need to respond here: You can comment directly to him on his site. Go tell him how wrong he is.

A message to Cindy Sheehan
I realize how tragic your loss is and I know how much pain there is crushing your heart and I know the darkness that suddenly came to wrap your life and wipe away your dreams and I do feel the heat of your tears that won't dry until you find the answers to your question; why you lost your loved one?

I have heard your story and I understand that you have the full right to ask people to stand by your side and support your cause. At the beginning I told myself, this is yet another woman who lost a piece of her heart and the questions of war, peace and why are killing her everyday. To be frank to you the first thing I thought of was like "why should I listen or care to answer when there are thousands of other women in America, Iraq and Afghanistan who lost a son or a husband or a brother…�

But today I was looking at your picture and I saw in your eyes a persistence, a great pain and a torturing question; why?

I know how you feel Cindy, I lived among the same pains for 35 years but worse than that was the fear from losing our loved ones at any moment. Even while I'm writing these words to you there are feelings of fear, stress, and sadness that interrupt our lives all the time but in spite of all that I'm sticking hard to hope which if I didn't have I would have died years ago.

Ma'am, we asked for your nation's help and we asked you to stand with us in our war and your nation's act was (and still is) an act of ultimate courage and unmatched sense of humanity.
Our request is justified, death was our daily bread and a million Iraqi mothers were expecting death to knock on their doors at any second to claim someone from their families.
Your face doesn't look strange to me at all; I see it everyday on endless numbers of Iraqi women who were struck by losses like yours.

Our fellow country men and women were buried alive, cut to pieces and thrown in acid pools and some were fed to the wild dogs while those who were lucky enough ran away to live like strangers and the Iraqi mother was left to grieve one son buried in an unfound grave and another one living far away who she might not get to see again.

We did nothing to deserve all that suffering, well except for a dream we had; a dream of living like normal people do.

We cried out of joy the day your son and his comrades freed us from the hands of the devil and we went to the streets not believing that the nightmare is over.
We practiced our freedom first by kicking and burning the statues and portraits of the hateful idol who stole 35 years from the life of a nation.
For the first time air smelled that beautiful, that was the smell of freedom.

The mothers went to break the bars of cells looking for the ones they lost 5, 12 or 20 years ago and other women went to dig the land with their bare hand searching for a few bones they can hold in their arms after they couldn't hold them when they belonged to a living person.

I recall seeing a woman on TV two years ago, she was digging through the dirt with her hands. There was no definite grave in there as the whole place was one large grave but she seemed willing to dig the whole place looking for her two brothers who disappeared from earth 24 years ago when they were dragged from their colleges to a chamber of hell.

Her tears mixed with the dirt of the grave and there were journalists asking her about what her brothers did wrong and she was screaming "I don't know, I don't know. They were only college students. They didn't murder anyone, they didn't steal, and they didn't hurt anyone in their lives. All I want to know is the place of their grave".

Why was this woman chosen to lose her dear ones? Why you? Why did a million women have to go through the same pain?

We did not choose war for the sake of war itself and we didn't sacrifice a million lives for fun! We could've accepted our jailor and kept living in our chains for the rest of our lives but it's freedom ma'am.
Freedom is not an American thing and it's not an Iraqi thing, it's what unites us as human beings. We refuse all kinds of restrictions and that's why we fought and still fighting everyday in spite of the swords in the hands of the cavemen who want us dead or slaves for their evil masters.

You are free to go and leave us alone but what am I going to tell your million sisters in Iraq? Should I ask them to leave Iraq too? Should I leave too? And what about the eight millions who walked through bombs to practice their freedom and vote? Should they leave this land too?
Is it a cursed land that no one should live in? Why is it that we were chosen to live in all this pain, why me, why my people, why you?

But I am not leaving this land because the bad guys are not going to leave us or you to live in peace. They are the same ones who flew the planes to kill your people in New York.
I ask you in the name of God or whatever you believe in; do not waste your son's blood.
We here have decided to avenge humanity, you and all the women who lost their loved ones.
Take a look at our enemy Cindy, look closely at the hooded man holding the sword and if you think he's right then I will back off and support your call.

We live in pain and grief everyday, every hour, every minute; all the horrors of the powers of darkness have been directed at us and I don't know exactly when am I going to feel safe again, maybe in a year, maybe two or even ten; I frankly don't know but I don't want to lose hope and faith.

We are in need for every hand that can offer some help. Please pray for us, I know that God listens to mothers' prayers and I call all the women on earth to pray with you for peace in this world.

Your son sacrificed his life for a very noble cause…No, he sacrificed himself for the most precious value in this existence; that is freedom.

His blood didn't go in vain; your son and our brethren are drawing a great example of selflessness.
God bless his free soul and God bless the souls of his comrades who are fighting evil.
God bless the souls of Iraqis who suffered and died for the sake of freedom.
God bless all the freedom lovers on earth.

The Arguments Keep getting weaker and weaker.

Ask an Iraqi? Are you serious? So is he a Shiite? Sunni? or Kurd? And what town? And why do you accept his view as seemingly universal?

Look, I can't make sense out of the mess in Iraq anymore than you can. Nobody can pretend to know the answers as I have said before. Its a mess created illegally and the D.U. concerns alone are ignored over an over again.

[personal attacks removed by moderator]

****ADDED***
CONSIDERING EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE WORLD TODAY.

SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE FOR EVEN MENTIONING JOHN KERRY, CINDY SHEEHAN, OR MIKE MOORE. Its demonstrative of your concern for the wellfare of Americans. We shouldn't even be in Iraq, everyone (with a clue) agrees. I've said it before- alot of Americans just don't care.

Look at what Bush Let happen in New Orleans. How's that for national Security?

The hypocrisy oozes guys... seriously, it does. Its cool, look at basically every poll taken regarding all these issues. People are waking up.

Some Links on Bush diverting Hurricane Prevention $ to Iraq- BIG suprise!
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12532185.htm
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/21af58dc-1b1c-11da-a117-00000e2511c8.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050831corps-story,1,2364215.story?coll=chi-news-hed
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2005/n01se05b.htm
http://www.gov.state.la.us/
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367
http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/08/katrina_proves.php

If all of these "Liberal" sources aren't good enough
be sure to check out the Notoriously Lefty Manchester Union Leader

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59785

Isn't sad that all you people will do is slam the sources, keep ignoring our establishing a theocracy in Secular Iraq, and never mind the Depleted Uranium Babies in Iraq or the Gulf War Syndrome Vets funded by Moore and Moveon.org right? Seriously guys- WAY too predictable.


I Will leave you with one last image of what some right-wing theocrats have already been suggesting.
http://www.salon.com/ent/col/fix/2005/08/30/tue/story.gif
the hateful wackjob group Called Columbia Christians for Life is responsible for this image.
http://www.armyofgod.com/ColumbiaChristians.html



BTW- Everyone buy CITGO oil, its nearly all Venezualan! F- Bush's Saudi Allies ;)
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0516-25.htm

And Hugo Chavez wants to extradite Pat Robertson. Go Hugo!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1125336554776_21/?hub=World
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/29/international/americas/29venez.html


Jack B.

[IMAO-Podcast]

I hate to break up the un-funny here, but FYI: the IMAO Podcast is now #1 on the PCA countdown.

That bit of news is relevant to this discussion since we are all a part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and receive our comedy talking points from Laurence Simon (aka "The Token Jew") who gets them directly from Karl Rove's office.

Sorry to interrupt--please continue your discussion...

[kickasspodcast]

Wow. I actually thought you were a human being, Jack. I thought that an Iraqi who lives there would automatically carry some weight as he has lived their his whole life and is in the situation now.


You have got to be kidding me? You are talking about the Iraqi's as if they aren't vastly differenty religious groups with hugely different cultures, points of view and poltical agendas. A Human Being? The Iraqi' with the Blog isn't the guy to listen to. Talk to the WOMEN of Iraq Jimk. They make up 60% of Iraq. Then come back and pretend you care about the Iraqi people. Don't quote 1 guy in a country of millions and act like his view could possiby be representative at all. Its unrealistic, and dishonest. His letter to Cindy was insulting and makes me think that entire blog is written by someone in the DoD.

We shouldn't be in Iraq in the 1st place, its an illegal war. You know this is true, so does the 1 guy in Iraq (who must have it pretty nice to have a blogspot account he can post in daily). An iraqi with a 2 year old blog? Something smells pretty aqua-turfed to me Jimk.

Keeping Ignoring the Depleted Uranium Guys. Shows how much you care.

Jack B.
(Proud to Live in Central Connecticut)

[notyourusualbollocks]

You tell 'em Jack......! Check out this article if you want some more fodder for your show. I doubt the US press has the balls to do any in-depth investigation regarding this topic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1561356,00.html

[Hittman]

Right, because the US press just hates to make Bush look bad.

Ya know, I was sure there was some connection between hurricane damage and African condoms, but couldn’t quite put my finger on the specifics. Thanks for clearing that up.

[kickasspodcast]

Right, because the US press just hates to make Bush look bad.

Ya know, I was sure there was some connection between hurricane damage and African condoms, but couldn’t quite put my finger on the specifics. Thanks for clearing that up.

I dunno, frankly when I try my hardest to set aside ALL of my politics, Its just so sad that EVEN MAYBE a few lives could have been saved with better prevention, as far as the American press making Bush look bad? I dunno, I think the White House Press Corp is pretty friendly, considering all they have to work with. I am not sure what you mean by African condoms, maybe you could clear that one up Hitt. Seriously I have no idea what that was supposed to mean.

Jack

if Anyone wants to play my PSA for katrina- the link is below
http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc_katrina_psa.mp3

Thanks.

[docsnavely]

huh? pork bellies? sell, sell, sell........

[notyourusualbollocks]

I've found a special track for Hittman....

http://www.blastcorp.com/uploads/****%20bush%20feat.%20ice%20T.mp3

You really should download it....

MK

[kickasspodcast]

I've found a special track for Hittman....

http://www.blastcorp.com/uploads/****%20bush%20feat.%20ice%20T.mp3

You really should download it....

MK

Hahah that's hilarious man.

Yeah- hittman is always the same old same old. Lotsa bullying and no real substance. Its ok, I don't take him anymore serious than I am sure he takes me. Funny stuff though man!

Jack B.

[Hittman]

I love good songs of any sort, but especially love good protest songs. But only the lamest of the lame can be enthralled with someone chanting “**** bush.� Yawn.

Are there any good protest songs for this war? Anything that’s clever, inspired, something that makes you laugh and cry at the same time? I’m thinking about things like "Give Peace a Chance." Country Joe’s “Fixin’ to Die� rag, or Arlo’s immortal “Alice’s Restaurant.� (I’ve seen him perform it live, twice, and it’s now ten minutes longer.) Do we have to go back thirty years to find any talented people doing protest songs?

Seriously, I’d like to hear a few.

[kickasspodcast]

I love good songs of any sort, but especially love good protest songs. But only the lamest of the lame can be enthralled with someone chanting “**** bush.� Yawn.

Are there any good protest songs for this war? Anything that’s clever, inspired, something that makes you laugh and cry at the same time? I’m thinking about things like "Give Peace a Chance." Country Joe’s “Fixin’ to Die� rag, or Arlo’s immortal “Alice’s Restaurant.� (I’ve seen him perform it live, twice, and it’s now ten minutes longer.) Do we have to go back thirty years to find any talented people doing protest songs?

Seriously, I’d like to hear a few.
Well, considering Vietnam was alot longer and included a Draft AND WAY more soldiers died, it makes sense to most people that there would be more protest songs for Vietnam. But all of these FACTS just get in the way.
Aside from the Rolling Stones new song "Sweet Neo Con" alot of small timers are writing songs.

Since you can't seem to google that well, Here are a buncha anti-war songs.
http://peace-not-war.org/Jukebox
http://www.newsongsforpeace.org/
http://resistwar.com/other_music.htm
http://paulgross.com/songs/
http://www.davidrovics.com/
http://polsong.gcal.ac.uk/
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/earle-steve/rich-mans-war-13681.html

Ever Heard of Ani Difranco?

Here are some Lyrics from Her


here's to our last drink of fossil fuels
let us vow to get off of this sauce
shoo away the swarms of commuter planes
and find that train ticket we lost
cuz once upon a time the line followed the river
and peeked into all the backyards
and the laundry was waving
the graffiti was teasing us
from brick walls and bridges
we were rolling over ridges
through valleys
under stars
I dream of touring like Duke Ellington
in my own railroad car
I dream of waiting on the tall blonde wooden benches
in a grand station aglow with grace
and then standing out on the platform
and feeling the air on my face

give back the night its distant whistle
give the darkness back its soul
give the big oil companies the finger finally
and relearn how to rock-n-roll
yes, the lessons are all around us and a change is waiting there
so it's time to pick through the rubble, clean the streets
and clear the air
get our government to pull its big dick out of the sand
of someone else's desert
put it back in its pants
and quit the hypocritical chants of
freedom forever


I think if nobody Else, Ani should get some respect, there are 100s of anti war songs. But alot of the Old ones still seem to apply.

But if You STILL can't find any.

This one seem nice to me Dave.

Attack Iraq
Author: Adam McNaughtan

Bush and Blair lie number one:
Saddam’s to blame that the war’s begun.
Nick nack attack Iraq wi missile and wi bomb
Some of our boys won’t come home.

Bush and Blair lie number two:
Civilian deaths are gonnae be few.
Nick nack attack Iraq bomb and then rebuild
Shame about the thousands killed.

Bush and Blair lie number three:
We’re fighting for democracy.
Nick nack attack Iraq deserts full o sand
Helicopters cannae land.

Bush and Blair lie number four:
We’re engaged in a just war.
Nick nack attack Iraq forward wi the tanks
The Footsie and Dow-Jones give thanks.

Bush and Blair lie number five:
Iraq’s an Al Qaeda hive.
Nick nack attack Iraq helicopter crashes
Dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

Bush and Blair lie number six:
Saddam’s been hoodwinking Hans Blix
Nick nack attack Iraq missiles under wraps
Fool the simple UN chaps.

Bush and Blair lie number seven:
This campaign is conscience-driven.
Nick nack attack Iraq tank and ship and plane,
The Dow-Jones rises once again.

Bush and Blair lie number eight:
We’re only here to liberate.
Nick nack attack Iraq if the bombing works,
What’s to be done about the Kurds and Turks.

Bush and Blair lie number nine:
Oil has never crossed our mind.
Nick nack attack Iraq who’s behind the mike?
Is it Saddam or a lookalike?

Bush and Blair lie number ten:
We believe in the UN.
Nick nack attack Iraq tanks and planes and ships,
The Charter’s been torn into strips.

Nick nack attack Iraq don’t stand any mair!
Sack Butcher Bush and Bloodstained Blair.

Copyright 2003 Adam McNaughtan

Jack B.

[IMAO-Podcast]

When he's not drinking the blood of African-American children from New Orleans caused by his refusal to sign the Kyoto treaty, George W. likes to curl up with the #1 rated podcast on Podcast Alley called:

[jimk]

It's like someone let all the restraints of intelligence, research, reason and logic just fade away from their mind.

If I didn't know it was real I'd say it had to be an elaborate scam.

[Hittman]

I haven’t heard the Stones new song yet, so can’t comment on it. (That’s what happens when podcasts become such a habit you hardly ever listen to the radio.)

The Peace Jukebox site is a nice presentation. Most of the songs are lame, though.

“We don’t Stop� isn’t bad, for rap. (I’m seldom impressed with rap. I’m old school enough to think that anyone who calls themselves a musician should be able to carry a tune.)

Lifesavas State of the World was pretty good. It reminds of some of the stuff buried in the tracks of Ten CC albums. But then the spoil it with lame rap.

The rest of it – crap.

On to the next site. New Songs for Peace, for a bit more spot checking. (Obviously I can only spot check these.)

First Listen: Sara Marlow, War Child. Dull, maudlin. Preachy. Juvenile.
Next: Philip Riddle, For Everyone. All the creativity of, well, one of your podcasts.
Next: The Thomas Conner Band: Teach Peace. They’ve got a nice little Doobie Brothers sound there. But the lyrics are absolutely lame ***.

Still haven’t heard anything inspiring. Or original. OK, I’ll try one more of your sites.

Resist War/Other Music starts with a dead link. Then it leads me to the site of Billy Brag, who claims to offer his songs for free, but not until I fill out all kinds of forms. No thanks.

Chris Hoban: Not in My Name. Hey, a good one! Real rhyming words, a nice 60’s folkie sound, and while I don’t agree with the sentiment, I like it. It’s still no where near what I’m looking for, but it’s good. Man, that was a lot of **** to dig through to find a pony. Let’s dig a bit more, shall we?

The Compassionate Conservatives want to take more than an hour to send me a three meg song, but a look at the lyric sheet shows me I’m not missing anything.

Steps for Peace leads me to a search page. Good lord, can’t these fools figure out HTML or check their links? It’s really not all that difficult.

Don’t think twice by John Kasper – this is the kind of lame **** I used to hear to at open mike nights, just before ducking into the back room. Predictable, unimaginative, preachy.

OK, enough. Out of all that exploring, I find one that’s not bad, and one that’s pretty good. But nothing at all to compare to the real thing, the stuff that got people excited and literally filled the streets decades ago. The stuff that people still sing today.

Let me give you some specifics:

Country Joe’s “Fixin’ to Die Rag.�

You can listen to it here http://www.countryjoe.com/rag.htm if you’ve infested your system with Real Player.

Sung jubilantly:
Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a ****,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
It’s funny. It’s fun. And it makes its point without any peachiness or sanctimony.

Stephen Stills “For What It’s Worth,� the only protest song I know of that’s self-critical.

Randy Newman’s “Let’s Drop The Big One.� Funny, and pointed.

The aforementioned “Alice’s Restaurant.� We play this every year at Thanksgiving. (It’s the tale of a Thanksgiving dinner, among other things.)

Edwin Star’s “War� is unmatched for sheer power and simplicity.

And who can forget “Imagine,� one of Lennon’s greatest. Or “Give Peace a Chance� for that matter.

“Blowin in The Wind,� anyone?

John Prine’s “Sam Stone,� while not specifically a protest song, is just amazing in it’s power and simplicity. If you can listen to this tale of a war vet (Prine cleverly avoids mentioning a specific war, making it timeless) without getting chills, you ain’t human. Prine remains one of the best songwriters, ever.

Tom Lehrer’s protest songs were about the Cold War, and they have never been equaled. “So Long Mom� is a masterpiece. So is “We’ll All Go Together When We Go,� which changes keys seven times. Both feature impeccable musicianship, extremely clever lyrics, and exuberant performances.

There was lame stuff, too, of course. “Eve of Destruction� was pathetic. As much as I love CSN&Y, and agree with the sentiment of “Ohio,� that song sucked.

My point is that the protesters of this generation seem to be devoid of creativity, humor, and talent. They preach. They’re sanctimonious as hell. And their protest songs are just crap, predictable stuff that sounds like they spent four minutes writing a three minute song. You want to protest a war, you’ve got to get some good tunes, some clever lyrics, and something people can enjoy, instead of this supercilious pap that would earn a fourth grader a C- in English class.

[kickasspodcast]

It's like someone let all the restraints of intelligence, research, reason and logic just fade away from their mind.

If I didn't know it was real I'd say it had to be an elaborate scam.

@Jim
I'm not gonna argue with you man.. way too much in my head for that.
Too much heavy **** going on right now. Plus i'm workin on show 30, a big review show so I have hella clips to do. You know how it is I guess. Seriously man. Farmington is no armpit, you know this. That wasn't cool.

Besides, you know as well as I do, they coulda done more. It never takes 3-5+ days to rescue people we see on the news in America, it just doesn't. You know it, we all know it. Maybe its wrong to blame the guys who are slow to act, maybe not. I just know that those poor people had nothin, and this is just another really tough hit for that already strugglin community. I know how it is, you hate to Agree with me. Its cool.

Besides, you have to admit this part was funny.


"get our government to pull its big dick out of the sand
of someone else's desert
put it back in its pants
and quit the hypocritical chants of
freedom forever "-Ani DiFranco

***ADDED
@Hittman
OK, well you don't like the songs, thats fine. They certainly are not classics that are tied to what maybe an important time in your life. But some people probably love them, music is all a matter of taste. Alot of the music you metioned was good, but its not hard to spot good music. I happen to like the song Ohio, we obviously have different tastes. I also like Rush and Mahavishnu and Buckethead and old Wu Tang and David Grisman and Robert Johnson, you know he sold his soul to the devil man? That's some crazy ****! I personally like all kinda music. Anyways, there are still plenty of contemporary anti-war songs. In no mood to argue with you tonight either Dave. Have a good nite.

Jack B.

PS- I think there would be more anti-war songs if anyone could possibly come up with a word that rhymes with Islamic Republic.

[Craig]

Here you go Jim:

Imagine a Walk on the Wild Side (http://media.audiostreet.net/11D14A4AEAD246398E3FE9DEB979707F/Download/imagine___walk_on_the_wild_side.mp3)

Obviously not something I agree with lyrically but sheer creative brilliance nevertheless!

And my vote for best new song about war goes to Chance and "Man on a Mission":

http://mynameischance.com/content/audio/live/moam-live.zip

This is the live version with the Choir...you can purchase the (better) studio version from his web site at http://mynameischance.com for $1.29. One of the things I love about this song (apart from the fact that it reminds me of the Clash) is that it's a musical Rorschach test...you can interpret it as anti OR pro!

Craig

[podcastshuffle]

I haven’t heard the Stones new song yet, so can’t comment on it. (That’s what happens when podcasts become such a habit you hardly ever listen to the radio.)

Check out the Full Music CD Listening Party (http://music.aol.com/songs/new_releases_full_cds/0829_rolling_stones) on AOL.com. The new Stones album is there. I didn't really like the Sweet Neo-Con song. Just kind of flapped there like a dead fish. The 'Oh No, Not You Again' track had a better beat to it. Without some sort of back story to the song however you wouldn't be able tell by the lyrics that it is or supposed to be an anti-Bush/Blair song. Could be about anyone - ex-wife, bad manager, etc.

Jeff

Wanna know how great Bush and his people are doing down in New Orleans? Hear it right from the mayor of New Orleans by clicking on this link...
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

He seems really happy with what Bush is doing.....I'm sure their meeting went really really well.

[jimk]

Wanna know how great Bush and his people are doing down in New Orleans? Hear it right from the mayor of New Orleans by clicking on this link...
http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3

He seems really happy with what Bush is doing.....I'm sure their meeting went really really well.

Oh what a load of crap. As fo right now, HALF the 6500 guardsmen CONTROLLED BY THE GOVERNOR are still waiting to be told to go in.

People playing partisan politics during this crises are the lowest of the low.

[docsnavely]

who the **** cares how their meeting went?

lets find something constructive to talk about like what companies are doubling red cross donations, or how you or a friend have gone down there to help out those nat. guard and local law enforcers to keep the peace, or about how you made your podcast especially for those affected by the hurricaine, or how you lived through the storm to tell your story, or how you were flying the helo that got shot at while saving lives, or the body you helped move out of the road, or the baby you gave a bottle to, or the elderly man who you found medicine for, or the water you handed out, or the bus you drove out of the dome full of survivors, or how your disaster preparedness planning committee is ready to tackle the problems for the next hurricaine so this doesn't happen again......

grow up aaron and start doing something constructive! donate or do something !

[notyourusualbollocks]

People playing partisan politics during this crises are the lowest of the low.

That's right. Everyone should just shut up! Don't question authority when there's a national disaster. Oh no, it's just not patriotic.

It's the single most worrying aspect of American society today. You used to have a great tradition of tolerating dissent. Now it's instantly labelled as 'partisan politics'. Utterly pathetic.

MK

[Craig]

When you have a crisis in front of you, especially one in which people are dying, the first thing you should do is put politics and disagreements aside and invest your time and energy getting out of crisis mode and saving as many lives as possible. Then argue if you must.

That's not pathetic, it's pragmatic.

Craig

Well Josh that's an awesome idea, unfortnately, everyone that might be able to tell that story is likely stuck nowhere near a computer or has access to power. The interview, since you obviously didn't bother to listen, explains that the government here has done NOTHING to help those people. Since this was a post about Bush, I felt it was important to give an example of his leadership or lack thereof. This is twice that George sat on his *** while people were dying. Except this time instead of reading a book, he chose to go golfing and hanging out with donors. He also took the time to give a speech in front of an aircraft carrier when that carrier could be on it's way to help people. As far as podcasting about the hurricane, I plan to make mention of it on my next show along with providing information to people on how to donate and help.

[docsnavely]

aaron, thank you for proving my point more clearly than necessary......

again, i will repeat myself. "do something constructive!"

and anways, i do believe i have heard it here before, and we all know that it is true..... GW is just a puppet. while he is out cavorting, his minions are the ones making all of the decisions..... deciding on what to take to the man, and what to take care of without bothering him.

i don't know how much more blunt i can get without calling him something that could get me infront of a stand.

BUT ALL OF THAT IS IRRELEVANT!

again, "do something constructive!"

Well checking your site, there seems to be zero mention of how to help these people so other than picking apart my posts, you don't seem to be doing a whole lot yourself there chief. I am doing what I can sir to help, and I have donated but I have a right to speak freely and if I wish to speak about politics on a politics related post, then I'm going to do that. If you want to start up a post all about the hurricane, have at it.

[docsnavely]

great assumption....

I love how i am not a supporter of anything unless it is plastered all over my blog.

not all of us are out there to show our support to save face. indiscretion is a beautiful thing.

[notyourusualbollocks]

When you have a crisis in front of you, especially one in which people are dying, the first thing you should do is put politics and disagreements aside and invest your time and energy getting out of crisis mode and saving as many lives as possible. Then argue if you must.

You can actually do both. I've already donated and I'm also arguing.

MK

[Hittman]

The interview, since you obviously didn't bother to listen, explains that the government here has done NOTHING to help those people.

You can complain that the government isn’t doing enough. You can complain that they’re not moving fast enough. But as the helicopters and hospital ships and National Guard and thousands of trucks loaded with supplies are arriving and already there, with more arriving at the hour, when you put NOTHING is all caps you have absolutely NO credibility.

[notyourusualbollocks]

But as the helicopters and hospital ships and National Guard and thousands of trucks loaded with supplies are arriving and already there, with more arriving at the hour, when you put NOTHING is all caps you have absolutely NO credibility.

What? 4 days later? Excellent response time.

MK

[kickasspodcast]

When you have a crisis in front of you, especially one in which people are dying, the first thing you should do is put politics and disagreements aside and invest your time and energy getting out of crisis mode and saving as many lives as possible. Then argue if you must.

That's not pathetic, it's pragmatic.

Craig

That would be a bit easier IF:

Democratic Mayor Nagin was Given Any Support when he needed it and not blamed.

Democratic Senator Landrieu was listened to those 100+ times she stood on the Senate floor and demanded they put the money back into the Army Corp of Engineers.

Democratic Govenor Blanco was Given any Support and also not blamed.
(Gov Blanco wrote Bush on August 28th (in crawford) asking for federal help)

I find it a big disgusting you are talking about pragmatics when its been purely political all along. Democrats in Red States get no help and their constituents die. What do you expect people to do when they can't go there and help, they have given all of their money to Red Cross, and they are still outraged at Political and Religious leaders who are doing nothing to help people.

You know Craig- I know we disagree on LOTS. I don't get how you try to come across as the GodCaster or religious in any way. Yet you rarely if ever speak out as a person of Faith would on issues relating to the War, Life etc...
I don't know what Brand of God you believe in and it doesn't matter. But its kinda repulsive that you pretend to act so holy and religious YET you are rarely will to take a stand and do the right thing. You are far more into apeasement and moderating people.

Jesus was a Radical Liberal. You know this. NOT a DIPLOMAT. He spoke truth to power and cared for the poor, the outcast, and the needy.

Before you start to act all holy-roller "Lets Not get political" How about you get spiritual and speak out against the obvious injustices of our time. I know- its not popular- but its the RIGHT thing to do Craig. Seriously The Godcast Network better represent in these times of crisis.

***ADDED

BTW-Nothing on godcast.org that even mentions Katrina or how to Donate.
Unbelievable. You ought to be ashamed. PUT A BIG *** BANNER UP The tiny mention in show notes doesn't count if you claim to be Godcasters. I think Jesus would have drawn some more attention to helping those poor people. You actually said " All of our podcasts are provided free of charge. If you enjoy what we're doing, please consider making a contribution to the American Red Cross" What the hell?
Jack B.

AND STOP DELETING PEOPLES POSTS

[jimk]

One simple question: WHY WAS THE SCHOOL AND CITY BUS FLEET NOT USED TO MOVE PEOPLE IN THE 48 HOURS BEFORE KATRINA HIT? (http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004749) Who caused this fleet to be flooded and not DRIVEN?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/stark23x/capt.jpg

[kickasspodcast]

One simple question: WHY WAS THE SCHOOL AND CITY BUS FLEET NOT USED TO MOVE PEOPLE IN THE 48 HOURS BEFORE KATRINA HIT? (http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004749) Who caused this fleet to be flooded and not DRIVEN?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/stark23x/capt.jpg


Now you are stealing right-wing spin from Drudge?

Is that the best you got?

[jimk]

Can't answer the question, liarboy? It's a simple question.

[docsnavely]

interesting, but i'm not sure that credibility goes 100% to a blog entry.

it is in fact the mayor's call, or the city council's....

being from florida, i know how much hurricanes are taken for granted though. if you've never experienced destruction from one, you're less likely to react in preparation as much as those who have experienced the destruction.....

i for one used to always blow it off growing up since i had never had anything other than some branches fly into our yard. out of 15 or so hurricanes, i still probably wouldn't prepare as much as necessary.... i guess it's just human nature mixed with a little bit of ignorance.

no one was apparently thinking out of the box. at least no one who mattered that is.... hmm strong correlations to a certain branch of the DoD..... hmmmm

[jimk]

interesting, but i'm not sure that credibility goes 100% to a blog entry.

It's a blog entry about a NEWS STORY. Refute the facts if you think it's a fraud.

I'm waiting to see how someone can refute the photo...this oughtta be good.

"The feds didn't do anything to move these people before the storm."

"Why didn't you use those frigging buses?"

"Uhh...good question."

[kickasspodcast]

Can't answer the question, liarboy? It's a simple question.

The question is WHY did the place flood in the 1st place?

Why did bush defund the Levee?

The answer to your question is also simple.

1: Most of the people who drive those busses had already evacuated.
2: Mayors cannot evacuate whole towns with school bus fleets that have no drivers.
3: Many people were threatened with loosing their jobs and did not evacuate.

The Big Question is? Why are you blaming the Black Democrat who had to send an SOS to the president in order to get any help at all?

Why do you have to resort to Right-Wing Drudge Tactics?

Can't think for yourself?


The REAL question is WHY DIDN'T BUSH prevent this from happening. Clinton had the great idea to fortify the Levees around New Orleans in 1995. It was a 10 year project and in 2003 Bush cut funding making it impossible to finish the 20% incompleted portion of the Levee.

And when disaster struck- our money, our people and our equipment was all in the Iraq.

All of these facts you like to sidestep by using 1 picture of a buncha school busses with no drivers, Hindsight sure is 20/20 Jimk. You have to ACTUALLY think for yourself on this one- Pictures from Drudge won't cut it.

I do notice SO many Neo-cons like yourself struggling to regroup, you guys are on FULL force to smear all the Democrats you can while ignoring the actual root of the problem.

THE PRESIDENT DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY THEN WENT GOLFING AND DID NOTHING TO ACTUALLY FACILITATE EVACUATION or RELIEF.
If the PRESIDENT DECLARES A STATE OF EMERGENCY FOR A HURRICANE- HE HAS TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.

Don't make be bring up Spamalot Condi ok?

Jack B.

you woldn't have needed to evacuate those people if they had completed the levee Nice try to say it was only built for a Catagory 3 Storm- It wasn't EVER finished so there is no way to say that. A catagory 3 storm did hit New Orleans and the levee did hold- but that doesn't mean it was ever fixed, funded, or completed.

I see why you hate Moore- Facts and you do not get along.
You just like to repeat GOP talking points and use pictures from drudge and stupid Limbaugh like questions that avoid the real issues to confuse people.

[jimk]

God you're stupid. Do you even understand the levee system was designed in NINETEEN SIXTY FIVE? You talk about thinking, but you're parroting the loony left mantra which is easily destroyed with five minutes of Googling.

Bottom line: There was a fleet of buses. Why weren't they used? Why is there image after image of HUNDREDS of empty, flooded buses?

You'd think that Bush would have learned from 9/11 that when the country is in need, you need to act, immediately. Monday, he's out golfing. Tuesday, he's playing the guitar. That doesn't send much of a message when people are dying in massive numbers and New Orleans looks like a war zone and you're still on vacation. What have we spent the billions of dollars and the last 4 years preparing for? Yes the troops are there now, but the 5 previous days were filled with no law, no guidance, no food, no water and no hope. I'm tired of watching the top people pose for photo ops while people are dying in the streets. Is it too much to ask our government to get their **** together??

CNN has a great article on what was being said by Bush's people and what is really happening on the ground.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html

[jimk]

I'll bow out of this stupidity with a quote from a friend:

I think it's funny that we have been dealing with hurricanes down here for DECADES.... Many have been killed, many have lost everything, and many got the hell out. None of you have cared about those of us devastated every single hurricane season..... and those of us that have been devastated have never tried to blame everyone for not helping. We pick ourselves back up and keep going. I have watched FEMA, etc. work in multiple hurricanes, and let me tell you IT ISN'T A FEDERAL PROBLEM... It's a local problem. Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have extremely well organized plans of action for hurricanes. Louisiana doesn't and they knew it. Now they are trying to blame the Federal government. It isn't Bush, it isn't Congress. It is local and state officials in Louisiana that should have had evacuation plans and plans for poverty stricken people in place LONG before a hurricane was looming. And I LIVE HERE.... the storm was not heading here last Thursday. We didn't know until Saturday that it was, and we didn't know the strength of it until Sunday.

Quit whining. Quit complaining. Quit pointing fingers. We have to rebuild. We have to rescue people. And that won't be done any faster with people pointing fingers and playing the blame game.

[kickasspodcast]

I'll bow out of this stupidity with a quote from a friend:

I think it's funny that we have been dealing with hurricanes down here for DECADES.... Many have been killed, many have lost everything, and many got the hell out. None of you have cared about those of us devastated every single hurricane season..... and those of us that have been devastated have never tried to blame everyone for not helping. We pick ourselves back up and keep going. I have watched FEMA, etc. work in multiple hurricanes, and let me tell you IT ISN'T A FEDERAL PROBLEM... It's a local problem. Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have extremely well organized plans of action for hurricanes. Louisiana doesn't and they knew it. Now they are trying to blame the Federal government. It isn't Bush, it isn't Congress. It is local and state officials in Louisiana that should have had evacuation plans and plans for poverty stricken people in place LONG before a hurricane was looming. And I LIVE HERE.... the storm was not heading here last Thursday. We didn't know until Saturday that it was, and we didn't know the strength of it until Sunday.

Quit whining. Quit complaining. Quit pointing fingers. We have to rebuild. We have to rescue people. And that won't be done any faster with people pointing fingers and playing the blame game.

Really? Its not Federal? Then why can I find in the 03, 04 and 05 Federal Budgets cuts to the Army Corp of Engineers. Why did Mary Landrieu ask over 100 times on the Senate Floor to have the money reallocated?


You realize your friend is telling people not to blame anyone while blaming someone.
Very Nice. I

Bottom line: There was a fleet of buses. Why weren't they used? Why is there image after image of HUNDREDS of empty, flooded buses?

You are really a peach man- you ignore the fact that the flood should never have happened. How DRUDGE CAN YOU GET?!?!?!
Your picture and question doesn't really prove anything. Those busses don't drive themselves. Why when the Gov and the Mayor and the Senators asked for help did they not get any?

You can't explain ****- you are defeated- you are in such a small minority of wingnuts trying to hold what little political ground you have.

The only crisis you care about is the Catagory 5 political Crisis your party is dealing with. Why else has there been such a focused effort to blame the very victims of this trajedy.

Keep blaming others- it only proves the ZERO Accountability Factor that this Bush Administration has always had. They never do anything wrong, never admit so much as one mistake. The fact that you are helping to spread that propaganda puts you neatly into a little box next to Tony Snow and Mike Savage. I am just glad everyone knows it.

Ask Donald Rumsfeld why he illegaly sent our National Guard and their equipment over to Iraq- I know they are supposed to be under the power of each States Gov- so why did he send them over there?

You just can't hang jim- Sorry.

Jack B.

[Craig]

I find it a big disgusting you are talking about pragmatics when its been purely political all along.
I'm not arguing that point. I'm talking about being pragmatic while people are still dying.

they are still outraged at Political and Religious leaders who are doing nothing to help people.
Precisely. My statement was addressing the political leaders who are wasting valuable time and energy arguing partisan politics while people are dying. As for religious leaders, from what I've read the religious communities (not just Christians) are doing a better job of mobilizing to provide support for evacuees than political leaders.

I don't get how you try to come across as the GodCaster or religious in any way.
Because this is a forum on podcasting.

I don't know what Brand of God you believe in and it doesn't matter. But its kinda repulsive that you pretend to act so holy and religious YET you are rarely will to take a stand and do the right thing. You are far more into apeasement and moderating people.
I take a stand and do the right thing in life. Here, my job as assigned by Chris IS apeasement and moderating people. (When I'm not contributing as a podcaster.) Ironically, as a Christian I'm usually the one accused of forcing my beliefs on others. Now here you are accusing me of not doing so.

Jesus was a Radical Liberal. You know this. NOT a DIPLOMAT. He spoke truth to power and cared for the poor, the outcast, and the needy.
Correct.

Before you start to act all holy-roller "Lets Not get political" How about you get spiritual and speak out against the obvious injustices of our time.
You're reading far more into my statement than was there. And Jesus was not political...as you said, his focus was on the people and in fact he taught that that's where our focus needed to be also.

BTW-Nothing on godcast.org that even mentions Katrina or how to Donate.
You mean nothing that mentions Katrina or how to donate the way you think it should be done. All or most of our shows have or will be mentioning Katrina and asking for support. You can start with the RevTim show if you like:

http://escschool.com/Media/rtp-59-2005-08-31.mp3

PUT A BIG *** BANNER UP. The tiny mention in show notes doesn't count if you claim to be Godcasters.
I fail to follow your logic as to why it doesn't count, but the banner is a good idea.

You actually said "All of our podcasts are provided free of charge. If you enjoy what we're doing, please consider making a contribution to the American Red Cross" What the hell?
People are getting hit up for donations from all over the place and a large percentage of visitors to TGN aren't Christians so I didn't want to make a plea targeted at Christians. I figured that this was a different angle that might encourage people to donate even if they had already. In retrospect it doesn't come off the way I had intended. Thanks for pointing that out.

AND STOP DELETING PEOPLES POSTS

Stop posting personal attacks in violation of the forum rules.

Craig

[kickasspodcast]

I find it a big disgusting you are talking about pragmatics when its been purely political all along.
I'm not arguing that point. I'm talking about being pragmatic while people are still dying.

they are still outraged at Political and Religious leaders who are doing nothing to help people.
Precisely. My statement was addressing the political leaders who are wasting valuable time and energy arguing partisan politics while people are dying. As for religious leaders, from what I've read the religious communities (not just Christians) are doing a better job of mobilizing to provide support for evacuees than political leaders.

That last sentance wasn't a slight poke at the slow response from the Govt?
Anyways...
I don't see it as partisan at all. We are asking why are democrats being ingored when they ask for help? We are asking the the GOP administration has been slow to act? Thats not partisan- its holding people responsible Craig. Of course regligious groups are organize. But where is the outcry at the actual injustice? Its ultimately the responsibility of FEMA, the National Guard and the US Governement to help the victims of the Flood and Katrina- and the response was inadequate. Where is the religious outcry at this injustice? That is what I meant. I know that Churches and Temples are organizing- someone has to.

I take a stand and do the right thing in life. Here, my job as assigned by Chris IS apeasement and moderating people. (When I'm not contributing as a podcaster.) Ironically, as a Christian I'm usually the one accused of forcing my beliefs on others. Now here you are accusing me of not doing so.

Well its kinda shady how you delete posts. Sometimes you say it was an "Accident" thats totally shady. If posts are deleted that are made by different people but dirrected at the same person, thats even shadier. However- I haven't accused you of forcing your beliefs on anyone. Nor have I seen anyone accuse you of that more than maybe once. I am not accusing you of anything. I am just challenging you to step it up a bit when it comes to the God/Jesus Part of Godcasting. That is all. Why is there a subtle attack on people "blaming" and "partisanship" but there is no outright mention of the fact that people have died needlessly.

Jesus was a Radical Liberal. You know this. NOT a DIPLOMAT. He spoke truth to power and cared for the poor, the outcast, and the needy.
Correct.
So why not speak truth to power now? There are WAY too many things that the Christians have to be outraged about and yet you don't hear it. Part of it is the media- but the other part of it is laziness. I dunno- I can see it as you wanting to pick and choose your own battles. We need someone besides Pat Robertson representing moderate Christian Politics. This is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. I have said it before- the most religious group of people in America are African Americans- and they almost ALWAYS vote Democrat. Speak truth to power, that's all I am suggesting. Consider it feedback- love it or forget it.


You're reading far more into my statement than was there. And Jesus was not political...as you said, his focus was on the people and in fact he taught that that's where our focus needed to be also.

I beg your pardon? Jesus was uber political. He was so political the State crucified him Craig. You know this. I am not saying he's a democrat or anything. To say the he wasn't political is crazy. His focus was on the people who were in need, usually because of crappy political leadership and human greed.
Think Jesus would like Bush's tax cuts for the Oil Companies and the defunding of Projects that help people? I don't think so.
Think Jesus would go golfing the day after the biggest Hurricane in 100 years? Think Jesus would support a preemptive war on another nation that did not attack us? One that kills 1000's of civilians. Think Jesus likes Depleted Uranium and what it does to Gods Children? Only you can decide where your focus is. Only you can interpret what you think Jesus' focus was on. You say it was on the people and that he said thats were we need to focus? Well yeah- I mean- Its people. Jesus taught us to focus on the people? Read that back- really- doesn't seem to make any more sense than common. Jesus taught people to love one another. That does not including golfing or seeing a broadway musical while your brethren are swimming it sewage, eating rats to survive.


You mean nothing that mentions Katrina or how to donate the way you think it should be done. All or most of our shows have or will be mentioning Katrina and asking for support. You can start with the RevTim show if you like:

http://escschool.com/Media/rtp-59-2005-08-31.mp3
<sigh>
No I mean- when you got to godcast.org there is absolutely no obvious focus or attention drawn to Katrina. Just a few minor notes you have to scroll down and read. I am merely asking you as a Godcaster to pitch in and put up some focus on your site directed towards the recent trajedy. I think all podcasters should, but definitely any Relgious podcaster out there better sure as heck have one or 5. Its too big of a trajedy not to have great focus on its relief. Thats all I was saying.


I fail to follow your logic as to why it doesn't count, but the banner is a good idea.
I guess its does "count" but its so small and people have scroll down as I said before- besides- when you look at as far as 1st impressions- people will be suprised if Katrina isn't prominently placed. Yeah- everyone should have a banner for at least a month. Its gonna take years to recoop, if ever, and we need to come together to get the message out as much as we can and to keep the focus on the disaster and its relief. I don't have any ANTI bush stuff on my site at all. I don't have any PRO- Democrat stuff either. But I do try to call attention to the disaster in every way I can.

People are getting hit up for donations from all over the place and a large percentage of visitors to TGN aren't Christians so I didn't want to make a plea targeted at Christians. I figured that this was a different angle that might encourage people to donate even if they had already. In retrospect it doesn't come off the way I had intended. Thanks for pointing that out.

I dunno, I think its crazy for any religious group not to have a big banner asking for help. I am glad you mention it in your show- much credit to you for that. You could make your own or whatever, you are good at that stuff craig.

Stop posting personal attacks in violation of the forum rules.

<sigh>
I don't think I am personally attacking anyone here. I think I have gone after the people who call me stupid and say that I am brainless and say they would let me drown if I was drowning- but I think I stick pretty much to what people are doing or saying and go after that. Its not a personal attack to call someone out. Its not a personal attack to state the truth. It is frustrating when Hugely thought out Posts by people get deleted or censored. I have been personally attacked by a few people on this board so many times that I really am laughing at you telling me its a violation of forum rules. I mean yeah, it is technically, but like the laws we choose to enforce in America- alot of things are let to slide all the time. Don't believe me- READ up.


Craig- my goal here wasn't to post a big rant on you craig or the TGN. Its to make a charge to all the Religious and Spiritual and Godly Podcasters out there to finally stand up and both act in doing what is right here and speaking out against the unjust actions of both People and their Governments.

You basically said- stop blaming and playing politics if people are dying. I agree with you. I do not think its wrong or partisan to point out how this could have been prevented or how poorly one particulary administration has botched yet another thing up.

I just want to hear the outcry from the religious leaders. Jesse Jackson yeah- Al Sharpton yeah- but those guys themselves are partisans with little to no credibility. Even I know that ;) But in podcasting- I had hoped to see especially alot of the so called "christian" podcasters stand up and say something about the unjustice and needless loss of human Life

Jack B.
.

[kickasspodcast]

Sweet LOVE THE NEW banner Craig! At least I can feel I accomplished something today!

Never any hard feelings with me man- You are alright in my book.
(unless you make some crazy post that I haven't read yet) ;)

Jack B.

[Craig]

You're reading far more into my statement than was there. And Jesus was not political...as you said, his focus was on the people and in fact he taught that that's where our focus needed to be also.

I beg your pardon? Jesus was uber political. He was so political the State crucified him Craig. You know this. I am not saying he's a democrat or anything. To say the he wasn't political is crazy. His focus was on the people who were in need, usually because of crappy political leadership and human greed.
This is a whole different discussion but he wasn't crucified for his politics. In fact, the State didn't see any reason to crucify him and did their best not to. Jesus' most political statement was "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." The vast majority of his other "political" statements were aimed at the politics and hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the time, who were the ones that wanted him crucified. (Not the Jews in general, just the the power-hungry religious leaders.) But that's not why he died. ;)

No I mean- when you got to godcast.org there is absolutely no obvious focus or attention drawn to Katrina.
I agree with you on that and just fixed it.

It is frustrating when Hugely thought out Posts by people get deleted or censored. I have been personally attacked by a few people on this board so many times that I really am laughing at you telling me its a violation of forum rules. I mean yeah, it is technically, but like the laws we choose to enforce in America- alot of things are let to slide all the time.
I'm doing my best to edit posts now instead of deleting them where possible. I can't catch everything by myself so feel free to point out anything I missed.

But in podcasting- I had hoped to see especially alot of the so called "christian" podcasters stand up and say something about the unjustice and needless loss of human Life.
You will, just not from a political perspective.

Craig

[kickasspodcast]

You're reading far more into my statement than was there. And Jesus was not political...as you said, his focus was on the people and in fact he taught that that's where our focus needed to be also.

I beg your pardon? Jesus was uber political. He was so political the State crucified him Craig. You know this. I am not saying he's a democrat or anything. To say the he wasn't political is crazy. His focus was on the people who were in need, usually because of crappy political leadership and human greed.
This is a whole different discussion but he wasn't crucified for his politics. In fact, the State didn't see any reason to crucify him and did their best not to. Jesus' most political statement was "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." The vast majority of his other "political" statements were aimed at the politics and hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the time, who were the ones that wanted him crucified. (Not the Jews in general, just the the power-hungry religious leaders.) But that's not why he died. ;)

No I mean- when you got to godcast.org there is absolutely no obvious focus or attention drawn to Katrina.
I agree with you on that and just fixed it.

It is frustrating when Hugely thought out Posts by people get deleted or censored. I have been personally attacked by a few people on this board so many times that I really am laughing at you telling me its a violation of forum rules. I mean yeah, it is technically, but like the laws we choose to enforce in America- alot of things are let to slide all the time.
I'm doing my best to edit posts now instead of deleting them where possible. I can't catch everything by myself so feel free to point out anything I missed.

But in podcasting- I had hoped to see especially alot of the so called "christian" podcasters stand up and say something about the unjustice and needless loss of human Life.
You will, just not from a political perspective.

Craig

Cool, I can live will all of this.

Thanks for the tone.

As far as Christ and Politics- you are also right in that being a different discussion.

Just never fear being called "partisan" if what you are doing/saying you know is Christlike or Godly in your heart. That would by my only advice.

As for moderation- I know its a pain- I should thank you for the work you do. Thanks. I'm totally serious here- I am sure your not paid and do not have to- so thanks.

Thanks Craig

Jack B.

[Craig]

Thanks, you're welcome, and no...I don't get paid a cent!

Craig

[podcastshuffle]

1: Most of the people who drive those busses had already evacuated.
2: Mayors cannot evacuate whole towns with school bus fleets that have no drivers.
3: Many people were threatened with loosing their jobs and did not evacuate.


Its interesting that this eighteen year old (Jabbor Gibson) could drive a school bus and no one else could?

http://www.newschannel5.tv/2005/9/1/4255/Taking-refuge-in-the-Astrodome

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.

That kid should get a medal. I don't know if he had any special training on buses or not. Maybe they are not that hard to drive.

Jeff

[FX]

You tell 'em Jack......! Check out this article if you want some more fodder for your show. I doubt the US press has the balls to do any in-depth investigation regarding this topic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1561356,00.html

Check out this link also:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html

"...In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war..."

[cid92]

You tell 'em Jack......! Check out this article if you want some more fodder for your show. I doubt the US press has the balls to do any in-depth investigation regarding this topic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1561356,00.html

Check out this link also:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2005/08/31/disaster_preparation/index_np.html

"...In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war..."

I found this quip in a BBC article interesting:

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said [it] was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded." "It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm

The article itself is interesting. It really blasts FEMA and Homeland Security, which it should, and it nails the mayor of NO and the Gov of Louisiana, which it should. I'm warning some of you though, it doesn't drop the hammer on Bush as much as you would like it to. It does mention the federal cuts though.

Also, as a side note - deleting posts - bad. Telling someone to F off is not necessarily a violation of the TOS. It's swearing at someone, not threatening them. I know what I wrote, and it wasn't a threat. Just a massive F you.

Lastly, instead of arguing the politics of this disaster, how about spending the time used to craft rebuttle arguments (which I was guilty of) into time that could be used to help those out who have nothing. One of our clients is a church. They are a drop off point for supplies bound for NO. I was amazed at how much was being donated and how many people were volunteering their time to organize the mess that was being created by so much food, water, clothers, baby supplies, etc. It was something to see the power of goodwill. In the 9 hours I was there it was estimated that they took in at least 15,000 bottles of water - they weren't done counting it when I left. That's a lot of **** water.[/quote]

[Zecryphon]

The question is WHY did the place flood in the 1st place?

Why did bush defund the Levee?

I've been doing some research and I can't find anything that suggests Bush did defund the levee system. What I did find however, is that the Sierra Club seems to have a big hand in this disaster, and no one is talking about it.

It turns out that the Sierra Club sued the Army Corps of Engineers in 1996 to stop a plan to raise and fortify Mississippi River levees. The corp of engineers had a plan to upgrade just over 300 miles of levees along the river in LA,MS, and AK. A Corps spokesperson told The Advocate, a newspaper in Baton Rouge this was needed because "a failure could wreak catastrophic consequences on Louisiana and Mississippi which the states would be decades in overcoming."

The suit filed by environmental groups in the U.S. District Court in N.O. claimed the Corps had not taken into consideration the impact on bottomland hardwood wetlands. The suit stated basically that Bottomland Hardwood forests must be protected and restored if the Louisiana black bear is to survive as a species, and to ensure support for source population of all birds breeding in the lower Mississippi River Valley. All parties involved were the Sierra Club, the Mississippi River Basin Alliance, and the LA, MS, AK Wildlife federations.

The lawsuit which was settled in 1997 ended with the environmentalist groups being victorious. So, work on upgrading the levees was halted. It doesn't sound to me like Bush defunded the levees to pay for the war in Iraq. Which brings me to another question. This is just a question. Why is it even the federal government's responsiblity to pay for levees in these states. It would seem to me that it is an issue for those states to maintain their water management systems.

If you wish to read further on this you can find the article Greens vs. Levees at www.nationalreviewonline.com You can also google the information. Since the National Review is probably considered a right-wing fundamentalist propaganda site you may want to look elsewhere for information.

The REAL question is WHY DIDN'T BUSH prevent this from happening. Clinton had the great idea to fortify the Levees around New Orleans in 1995. It was a 10 year project and in 2003 Bush cut funding making it impossible to finish the 20% incompleted portion of the Levee.

And when disaster struck- our money, our people and our equipment was all in the Iraq.

It turns out that the Clinton administration would almost always side with the environmentalist agenda on flood-control projects, even if that meant going against the wishes of local area democrats. Under the Cliniton administration the Army Corps of Engineers started a planned "spring rise" of the Missouri River that would bring up the water levels on the river during part of the year. This action was supported by eco-groups, who said that this action restored the natural flow of the river and protected a bird called the piping plover.

Farm groups and others however had a different view. They said that this action combined with ice melting from winter, could increase the risk of flooding in river communities and affect more than a million acres of productive farmlands. Clinton refused to budge on his stance. Which was a factor in Bush's carrying of MO in the elections of 2000. Bush made good on his promise; his workers at the Corps of Engineers have stopped their "spring rise" that was instituted under Clinton and had so many worried about potential flooding. The environmentalist groups criticized Bush and brought a series of legal proceedings. This was also seen when Bush made moves to stop the Clinton administration's plans to breach the ****s on the Columbia and Snake rivers. These dams help control flooding in these regions, the eco-group known as American Rivers attacked the Bush administration for not doing enough to save the Sockeye salmon, which is native to the region.

It sounds to me like eco-groups and environmentalists care more about birds, fish and plant life than they do about people. But who's shocked by that? I've known that for years. It's interesting that when a disaster happens like this one, people on the left point fingers and play the blame game. But it seems like they're the ones to blame here. Millions of people now have no place to live, no jobs, and no future. But who cares, the fish and birds and bears will live happily ever after, and after all isn't that what really counts.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

You'll find the listing of the white house budget on whitehouse.gov, nice investigative work there......I'm so glad that you managed to bring Clinton into all of this. Let's see, the guy has been office for what, 5 years? And yet here he is, responsible for it all. Nevermind that the president was still taking vacation on the first two days of this disaster and didn't bother to go down there till the 4th day, it's all Clintons fault. What flavor kool aid are you drinking? My guess is Hannity Huckleberry Blue.

[Zecryphon]

You'll find the listing of the white house budget on whitehouse.gov, nice investigative work there......I'm so glad that you managed to bring Clinton into all of this. Let's see, the guy has been office for what, 5 years? And yet here he is, responsible for it all. Nevermind that the president was still taking vacation on the first two days of this disaster and didn't bother to go down there till the 4th day, it's all Clintons fault. What flavor kool aid are you drinking? My guess is Hannity Huckleberry Blue.

First of all, if all you managed to get out of my post was that it's all Clinton's fault, you're reading comprehension needs improvement in the worst way. I didn't say it was all Clinton's fault. I said the policies he enacted while in office contributed in part to the disaster in Louisiana. The key phrase there is "in part". Do you really think legislation or policies that president's enact while in office ceases to exist or have an effect after they leave office?

Let's not forget that it was the environmental group's lawsuits that were responsible for the Army Corps of Engineers having to cease work on restoring the levees in Louisiana and other states. Why? Because they were more concerned about black bears and salmon and birds, than about the people who live in those states. You know the same people who alot of people on this board are now complaining that Bush is ignoring. But you completely missed that, or you just don't care, which means you could be an environmental extremists like those found in the Sierra Club and other groups. I said could be, not that you are, don't want you misquoting me again.

Furthermore, if you had read the previous posts, you would see that it was kickasspodcast who was praising Clinton for his efforts on the water management in Louisiana. He brought Bill Clinton into the discussion, not me. If you're going to post in the forums at least get the facts of who said what right.

As for the president taking vacation for the first two days, I don't know for a fact that he was on vacation. If the guy wants to go out and play a little golf, that's great, good for him. In reality he can't do anything until he knows what has to be done. FEMA is responsible for providing him with that information. Where does FEMA get their info? I would think it would come from the mayor and governor of Louisiana? These people are supposed to know the extent of the damage and tell FEMA what they need, so they can then go back to Bush and say this is what we need and where we need it. You know information gathering and deployment of relief. The mayor and governor for whatever reason failed to do this. So FEMA and other groups had to spend time surveying the damage, along with the president doing flyovers to get an idea of what was needed where and how best to implement a strategy to fix it. All of this takes time. Federal relief isn't granted by saying "we need help. Send help. But we have no idea what we need or where we need it."

Let's not forget also, that the mayor did say "get out of town". Not everyone could leave though. It seems the people of Louisiana had the attitude of, "oh it's just another hurricane. We'll board up our windows and ride it out". They were told their levee system couldn't handle anything above a category 3 hurricane. Katrina was expected to hit at a strength of category 4 or 5. Did they really think the levees would hold? Apparently. Katrina hit at category 2, and look what heppened. They never had a course of action for the worst case scenario, which is, the levees have breached.

Louisiana had no evacuation plan or a plan of what to do with the people who couldn't leave, other than "um, put them in the Superdome". Okay, they're in the dome, now what? Was there food and water there in the dome for all the people they warehoused? No. Why not? Oh that's right because Bush is responsible for stockpiling it with food and supplies, not the governor or the mayor. Also, people were forced to stay in the Superdome even after the hurricane had moved on. Why? I don't know. Probably because there wasn't a clear chain of command set up. No course of action, so various people in charge are flying by the seat of their pants. There were failures at all levels here, mostly at the state level. If you wanna play the blame game do it later. The people are finally getting help and getting out. Alot of the evacuees, are never going back to Louisiana, they now live in Texas, Arizona and other states. It will be interesting to see if they contribute there, or if they all end up on welfare with their hands out to the federal government saying "gimme gimme gimme". What we have to do is do the best we can now to fix it. Then, we have to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again, with evacuation procedures, emergency supply kit information distributed to people, where to go, what to do. Other states have these things for hurricanes and natural disasters, it's time Louisiana did too.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

Wow you are amazing! The first day of the hurricane Bush was here, IN ARIZONA, playing golf. The second day he flew over to San Diego for a photo op. Since he's the President, he might want to be calling the shots since he's the leader of America.....And now I see that you've managed to blame the victims. Do rape victims share the blame for wearing something skimpy? This is the typical reaction...say something bad about Bush and a republican says "well I don't know anything about that, sure you have your facts straight"......

[Hittman]

Aarron, would you care to address what he said, instead of the childish “you listen to fox, nayh nayh nayh� equlivent you posted?

Ah, your second post is even better – rape victims. Guess you have absolutely no intention/ability to discuss the subject at hand. Thanks for playing.

Interesting take on the environmental groups fighting against improving the levees – I’ll have to research that a bit more, but it sounds about right. These are the folks who starved out a group of farmers, refusing to let them get the water they needed to keep their farms going, to protect some sucker fish that wasn’t even endangered. They have shown, time and time again, that humans are the very least important thing on their list. They’d rather let hundreds of humans die than annoy a single hamster.

[kickasspodcast]

Wow you are amazing! The first day of the hurricane Bush was here, IN ARIZONA, playing golf. The second day he flew over to San Diego for a photo op. Since he's the President, he might want to be calling the shots since he's the leader of America.....And now I see that you've managed to blame the victims. Do rape victims share the blame for wearing something skimpy? This is the typical reaction...say something bad about Bush and a republican says "well I don't know anything about that, sure you have your facts straight"......

Aaron gets it-

Its amazing how simple it is, that is why its so **** frustrating when people seem so blind.


Guess you have absolutely no intention/ability to discuss the subject at hand. Thanks for playing.

Don't you just love how hittman has that superiority complex where he thinks he decides who is an who is not capable of discussion?

@Zecryphon
You are seriously going to need to add about 20 links to your last post so that we have some shred of proof of what you are talking about. Alot of seems reasonable and possible, BUT links would help alot.

FYI- Clinton has nothing to do with Bush's 02,03 & 04 Budget Cuts. Sorry.
He also didn't send 70% of the Gulf coast's national guard to iraq to fight and illegal, murderous war. Can't we just leave clinton alone? If it weren't for his strong 8 years of leadership, we would have had 8 years of Reagan followed by 12 years of Bush. How in the hell can that be good for america?


JacK B.

[Zecryphon]

I don't need 20 links two should do it. Try www.nationalreviewonline.com and click on greens vs. levees, also a google search on the Sierra Club Levees lawsuit should merit some results.

FYI- Clinton has nothing to do with Bush's 02,03 & 04 Budget Cuts. Sorry.
He also didn't send 70% of the Gulf coast's national guard to iraq to fight and illegal, murderous war. Can't we just leave clinton alone? If it weren't for his strong 8 years of leadership, we would have had 8 years of Reagan followed by 12 years of Bush. How in the hell can that be good for america?

Well, I'm addressing one aspect of Clinton's presidency in my posts, his constant siding with environmentalists and their agenda regardless of how it may have impacted the citizens with a vested interest in the how his actions would affect their livelihoods. Granted hindsight is 20/20 and any leader or person in charge is subject to criticism after the fact. I'm sure he probably questions alot of the decisions he made too. I'm very happy to leave Clinton alone, I'm not bringing up any of his scandals, investigations or impeachment. Well I did just now, but I was making a point. Since you tend to side with the left I'm not going to waste time in an endless political debate about the right vs. the left and which is better for this country. I will say this though, George Bush, Sr. was more of a democrat than a republican. I'd like to stick to the issue at hand, which is why did the levees fail and who really was responsible.

As for what Aaron gets, I don't know what he gets at all. He's not addressing anything I wrote in my post. Granted I haven't read the government budget for the years you mentioned, but I'm going to guess that any cuts that were made to the levee funding in Louisiana, were probably a result or stipulation of the lawsuit filed by the Sierra Club. As for cutting funds and sending all of our resources to Iraq, where did you get that information. Do you have links to back it up? I think Bush has done a hell of a job with the miniscule resources he left himself, order is restored and people are getting the help they need. No one has yet addressed why the mayor or governor failed to have a plan of action for disaster relief, a plan of evacuation not only of citizens, but seniors, the handicapped and the people in the hospitals. The federal govt. should only step in, if the state's plans have failed. Louisiana had no plans, so of course they failed, but it's just easier to blame Bush. So that's what we do.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

P.S. Kickass, you and I don't agree on much, but I have more respect for you than probably anyone else on here because you don't resort to personal attacks like Hittman, and you can discuss things rationally, even though we don't agree. I may not like your politics, but you have earned my respect.


JacK B.

[Zecryphon]

On a side note, I'd like to examine the endless pursuit of environmentalists and animal rights activists like Greenpeace and the Sierra Club to defend and protect animal rights no matter what the cost. What do you think of the results they achieved in Louisiana? Because of their lawsuit, the Army Corps of Engineers had to stop restoring over 300 miles of levees that were in desperate need of repair. Their reasoning, it will harm the black bear and salmon populations. Now we all know that bears love nothing more than feasting on salmon, salmon swim, and bears eat.

But since the work was halted, the levees were left probably weaker than they were before, so no wonder they broke. But where was the state of Louisiana? Could they not have filed their own suit to complete the work on their own? Seems alot of people in that state were in opposition to raising water levels, instead fixing the levees. Let me ask you this, how many bears and fish do you think are thriving now? The water is Louisiana is so polluted that every bacteria and disease known to mankind is now floating in that water, and probably a few new strains of bacteria that we will spend years trying to identify and cure.

In my opinion the Sierra Club really shot themselves in the foot on this one. In their pursuit to save the animals from certain extinction (as is always their rallying cry in these lawsuits), they have pretty much guaranteed the deaths of alot the animals and plant life they were trying to save. Not to mention the thousands of people that will likely get sick or die from exposure to that water, but they don't put human life first, so that's not really going to affect them that deeply. Yes I do think some of them are that heartless.

Here's some advice guys, listen to other people who know the environment, work in it and understand the science behind it better than you do. Had the levees been restored, those animals would be doing what they do best, living.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zeryphon

Well perhaps the reason I didn't spend a bunch of time debunking your nonsense is because I was at work and posting during my lunch and breaks. As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I have no idea if they sued the Army Corps of engineers out of their work but I do know that the President did indeed cut funding of the Army Corps of engineers and it's hard to do anything if you have no money to do it. Regardless of levees or not, the city would have been heavily damaged and when it was, the feds didn't step in and do anything, even when asked. Were the state and local officials guilty of failing to plan effectively, yes. Is the President guilty of sitting on his *** and doing nothing when the failures of the state and local officials became evident, yes. But instead of taking some of this on himself, he's diverting and blaming everyone else. It's the victims fault, it's the mayors fault, it's the govenors fault, but somehow that's where the buck stops. FEMA was downgraded and swallowed up in homeland security, guess who requested that and signed it into law, not the mayor of New Orleans but good guess. Nope not Clinton either. What I saw on tv was people dying and the President golfing. I'm sorry but that to me sticks in my crawl more than anything because that same guy froze on 9/11 too. He sat there in a classroom and froze. One other thing, since you end every post with "your brother in Christ", can you tell me where in the Bible that God or Christ proposed enacting policies that hurt the poor, the sick, attack another country without provocation and ignore the people who need your help in their time of need unless it's for a photo op. I've seen many pictures of Christ, none of them show him doing a photo op with the local farmers. So find it deep in your faith to realize that you are supporting a man who is anything but a Christian. He's a cokehead and the worst president ever.

[Zecryphon]

As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I have no idea if they sued the Army Corps of engineers out of their work but I do know that the President did indeed cut funding of the Army Corps of engineers and it's hard to do anything if you have no money to do it.

It is very easy for someone to learn about the Sierra Club lawsuit. All you have to do is go to www.google.com and type in Sierra Club Levee Lawsuit and you will be presented with a whole bunch of pages on the matter. That's what I did, and I just happened to click on www.nationalreviewonline.com Okay, the president cut funding for the Army Corps of Engineers in what, 2003? That's six years after the lawsuit was settled regarding the Sierra Club. Maybe the two instances are not related. Maybe he made funding cuts for other reasons. It seems quite a stretch to say that he cut funding for the repairs on the levees, to pay for the war in Iraq. I've yet to hear from Kickass where he got that information. It is apparently a fact that Mr. Bush did in fact cut funding for the Corps of Engineers, why is another matter that has yet to be resolved. But why would he continue to pour money into the Corps of Engineers to fix levees he was sued into not fixing. It doesn't make any sense. I think what we have here is a coincidence that people want to twist to fit their own agendas or political stances.

Regardless of levees or not, the city would have been heavily damaged and when it was, the feds didn't step in and do anything, even when asked. Were the state and local officials guilty of failing to plan effectively, yes. Is the President guilty of sitting on his *** and doing nothing when the failures of the state and local officials became evident, yes.

No one is arguing that the city would have been heavily damaged had the levees not broken. It's my personal opinion that had Katrina hit New Orleans at the predicted strength of a Category 5 hurricane, we wouldn't be on this message board blaming everyone we think is at fault here, because there wouldn't be anyone left alive to blame. I'm glad to see that you've come to the realization that the state government of Louisiana is partly responsible for this terrible tragedy. In a previous post when I said the state failed in it's responsibilty to protect it's citizens in cases of emergency, you accused me of blaming the victims. I clearly was not doing that. There were serious mistakes made by all parties in the way the response and the distribution of help and supplies were delegated in this disaster. It just seems to me that everyone is just quick to blame the federal government, because things don't happen as quickly with the federal government as we would like them to. But is this really news to you? How long do you wait for your income tax refund? A couple of months right? If you're lucky, that is.


FEMA was downgraded and swallowed up in homeland security, guess who requested that and signed it into law, not the mayor of New Orleans but good guess. Nope not Clinton either.

Yes, the president did downgrade FEMA and make it a part of Homeland security. It probably made sense in his mind to consolidate the two, so they could work better together, rather than apart. I would never think that the mayor of New Orleans had the kind of power to make changes to the way federal agencies interact with each other. He seems to have enough problems running New Orleans. I know Clinton didn't do it, he had enough problems of his own running his presidency.

What I saw on tv was people dying and the President golfing. I'm sorry but that to me sticks in my crawl more than anything because that same guy froze on 9/11 too. He sat there in a classroom and froze.

How would you react to the news that a jumbo jet had just crashed into the World Trade Center and you were told that you're not sure if it was an accident or an attack of some kind. You've had four years to think about it, he had a split second. I think he reacted rather well.

One other thing, since you end every post with "your brother in Christ", can you tell me where in the Bible that God or Christ proposed enacting policies that hurt the poor, the sick, attack another country without provocation and ignore the people who need your help in their time of need unless it's for a photo op.

The way I sign my post is a declaration of my faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins. It's all over the bible what happens to people who enact policies that hurt the poor, the sick and attack other countries without provocation. All those things are examples of sin. What happens to sinners, well if they don't repent they go to Hell for eternity. But this is not a religious discussion, and I'm actually surprised that you're dragging the bible and my personal faith in Jesus Christ into a discussion about the failure of the governments to act in reaction to hurricane Katrina.

So find it deep in your faith to realize that you are supporting a man who is anything but a Christian.

Do you know what the definition of a Christian is? A Christian is not your typical mother Theresa type, devoting all their time to charities, and attending church five times a week, and reading his or her bible everyday. A Christian is a person who accepts Christ's death on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins. That's it. Plain and simple. I thank God that people like you don't decide who's a Christian and who isn't. If you did decide that Heaven would be filled with people exactly like you.

George Bush is a Christian if he accepts the death of Jesus for the forgiveness of his sins. Not if he responds to hurricane Katrina to your liking or in your time frame. Put simply you need Christ to be a Christian.

Contrary to popular opinion, a Christian is not a good person. Good people don't need a savior, just like healthy people don't need a doctor. Christ didn't come to save the good people, he came to save the sinners and the lost. People like you and me. Yes, I'm calling you a sinner. This is not an insult or a personal attack. According to my faith, everyone is a sinner. Whether or not you accept it is another matter. Jesus said it Himself, no one is good except for God.

Do you think you're a good person? Go to www.needgod.com and take a test called "Are you a good person?" I guarantee when you're judged by God's laws, you are not the good person you think you are. No one is. We're getting way off topic here, and Christian rants like this are despised on these boards, but you brought it up.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

Yes I did bring it up and it's not an attack on you, it's not intended to be. But my issue is with people who are Christian and support Bush's policies and actions. To me, the Christian thing to do when you see something horrific on tv is immediately act to help, not play golf or find yet another photo opportunity with the military. Policies such as the bankruptcy bill which was designed to hurt poor and sick people who can't pay their bills is another issue I have with him. Are there people who take advantage of the previous bankruptcy laws, sure there are, but a careful look into the banking industry will clearly show their losses or the ones they claim come from bankruptcy were actually coming from bad investments. Jesus was not pro war, yet I keep seeing sound minded Christian people who fully support a war that hasn't been fully supported with any facts on why we are truly there. The reasons keep changing but the faith in something that shouldn't be supported by a Christian doesn't. Didn't Jesus teach love? What's loving about blowing other people up or screwing others over in their time of need? To me, Bush is a fake Christian, it's all an act and maybe you're right, maybe God knows that and Bush will get his day. I just wish the people who see him as this God loving person person would wake up and realize that his policies are not "faith based" nor are they Christian. Christians believe in repentence for sins and yet Bush never seems to find a single fault in almost anything he does or least he can't admit any. Do I think I'm a good person or that I'm better than someone else, no on both counts. I know I have been bad to others, I readily admit that on my show and I know that my day will come as well, but I take comfort in knowing that I was honest with others and with myself. But let's see the wolf in his sheep's clothing, the emperor has shown his true side yet again and it's time for people to realize he's a fraud.

[Hittman]

Policies such as the bankruptcy bill which was designed to hurt poor and sick people who can't pay their bills is another issue I have with him. Are there people who take advantage of the previous bankruptcy laws, sure there are, but a careful look into the banking industry will clearly show their losses or the ones they claim come from bankruptcy were actually coming from bad investments.

Most industries turn a profit of 5-6%. Anything more than that is considered very, very good.

The banking and credit industries turn a profit of 14%, second only to big pharma (18%) and this was before the bankruptcy bill.

In a capitalist economy, bankers who take too many large risks would lose enough to go out of business, or change their lending guidelines. When someone goes bankrupt because of misusing credit, it’s not only the fault of the individual, but of the lenders who gave him more credit than they should have.

About half of the chapter 7 bankruptcies were caused by excessive medical bills. Ted Kennedy, in a rare display of doing something worthwhile, tried to attach an amendment to the bill that would have allows medical bankruptcies. It was rejected.

Even by the credit companies numbers (and they have every incentive to lie), less than 10% of bankruptcies are caused by people intentionally running up their bills, intending to go bankrupt. And even with them in the pictures, banks show a 14% profit, year after year after year.

There was nothing in that bill for the poor. Or the middle class. Or the lower upper class. There were provisiosns in it that allowed the extremely wealthy to shelter their money overseas, while declaring bankrupt over here.

Kanye West was wrong. Bush doesn’t dislike black people. He doesn’t like anyone who isn’t in his tax bracket.

Yeah, I’m getting off topic, but this one really frosts my ***. Bush’s indifference to anyone who doesn’t share his faith and income bracket makes him a horrible, horrible human being, not to mention what it does for his presidency.

[Zecryphon]

But my issue is with people who are Christian and support Bush's policies and actions. To me, the Christian thing to do when you see something horrific on tv is immediately act to help, not play golf or find yet another photo opportunity with the military.

I am a Christian and I support Bush's policies and actions. But his policies and actions are not just limited to the wars in Afghanastan and Iraq. There's the nomination of Supreme Court justices, who will protect the freedoms he holds dear. Who will look at issues with objectivity and fairness, and not play so many partisan politics. Who will do their job of interpreting the laws of the land, instead of making them.

Now what you see is not always the reality of a situation. You saw people suffering as a result of the flood in Louisiana and you saw the president playing golf. This on the surface would outrage anyone. But what I think happened is this. I think that Bush had given orders to the people under him to gather intelligence about what the victims of the hurricane needed in the way of aid and relief. That's was leaders do. They delegate authority to those under them, and then act on what they're told. Why should George Bush be any different? Who knows? Maybe he does his best thinking while on vacation, which would explain why he takes so much of it. Now, what it sounds to me like you want is a president who has a crystal ball on his desk and will know what a place like New Orleans needs the second a disaster strikes, and send aid in the blink of an eye. That's not how it works. It'd be nice, but it's a fantasy my friend. This is the federal government were discussing here, the biggest beuracracy in the world. You can't go to the bathroom in this place without filing paperwork a week in advance. LOL

You say he doesn't admit when he makes mistakes or screws up. Well who does? Has the mayor of New Orleans or the governor of Louisiana? I haven't heard anything along those lines. Did Clinton when he was getting serviced by White House interns? No. I remember him coming on national television and telling the world that he did not have sexual relations with that woman... Miss Lewinsky. Kinda funny how he has to be specific here, which leads me to think he was probably banging more interns than her. She's just the one we found out about. Then a few months later, it comes out that yes he had in fact had relations with her. Bottom line he lied to us. The media told us his private life is none of our business. But he didn't do this in a motel somewhere, he did it in his office. An office we sent him to. It very much is our business. We were told it was no big deal, if that were true why cover it up and lie about it. When I judge him by the laws of God, he is guilty. He is a liar, an adulterer and a war monger. Let's not forget those little wars he started in the Balkans and other regions to cover up for his actions in this country. Let's also not overlook the fact that in both wars not one missile or bomb the United States has fired, has gone off course and hit a school or hospital. I guess we upgraded our maps since the days of Coital Clinton.

As for the situation in Iraq. I believe he had bad intelligence. He believed that there were weapons of mass destruction there, plus he had a bone to pick with Saddam Hussein. If a terrorist tried to kill your dad, you'd want a little payback too. It's called revenge, and it's one of the most basic human instincts we have. Did he act accordance to Christ's teachings? That's debatable. Jesus helped those who were powerless to help themselves. Sounds alot like the situation in Iraq if you ask me.

I also believe with the war in Iraq we removed the 3 biggest weapons of mass destruction there were, Saddam and his two kids. No longer do people have to live in fear of a dictator who will try chemical weapons on them, look the other way while his sons rape little girls and slit their throats, or feed people who disagree with his policies feet first into spinning blades. If you talk to the Iraqi people, the actual people of Iraq, not what the media tells you the media tells you they are saying, they will tell you they are much happier. If you can talk to some soldiers about how the people of Iraq really are feeling today, as opposed to a few years ago, please do so.

If you want to look at it from a biblical perspective, I will be happy to point you to some materials that will address that aspect of it as well.

You keep saying Bush is a man who does nothing in the wake of disaster. It's apparent you likr Bill Clinton. But what did Bill Clinton do as response to Osama Bin Laden's attacks on the United States? When Bin Laden claimed responsibility for the bombing of the USS Cole, what did Clinton do? Bombing that ship was his declaration of open war on the U.S. by the way. I can't think of any response from Clinton. Maybe you know of one?

What did Clinton do when Bin Laden blew up embassies in Africa as another attack on the United States? Again, I'm drawing a blank. From what I remember he couldn't be bothered with responding. He was more interested in getting serviced by White House interns and Walter Mondale's daughter than acting on intelligence of precisely where Bin Laden was and having the opportunity to take him out.

What did Bush do when 9/11 happened? You say he froze. Yeah I could see how you would see it that way. But then I remember us going into Afghanastan and kicking some towel-head ***!!! Now he's off somewhere hiding in a cave, and moving around all the time, because he's afraid we're gonna get him just like we got his terrorist buddy Hussein.

Now, in my last post, I went into great detail about the one thing you need to do to become a Christian. It's just one little thing. Just because you see Bush's actions as being in opposition with Christ's teachings, does not make him less of a Christian. I told you before, you don't get to decide who is and who isn't a good Christian. There is no such thing as a good Christian. We're all bad, that's why we need to become Christians. You've admitted you've done bad things, and your day will come. You can avoid that judgement from God by doing the same thing George Bush and every other Christian throughout history has done. Accepting Christ.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

[kickasspodcast]

Let me just start by saying I will not type the 15 pages I could. Your welcome.

@Zecryphon
Thanks for the kind words about personal attacks, I try real hard, but am anything but perfect. In light of your kindness, I will refrain from them in this post as best I can.

But, I have to hold you responsible for these 2 statements. I had to do a double take on the 1st and the 2nd made me chuckle after reading the former.


What did Bush do when 9/11 happened? You say he froze. Yeah I could see how you would see it that way. But then I remember us going into Afghanastan and kicking some towel-head ***!!! Now he's off somewhere hiding in a cave, and moving around all the time, because he's afraid we're gonna get him just like we got his terrorist buddy Hussein.

Hey George...wanna respond for me?
SURE JACK! AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW MY GIRLS LOVE YOUR SHOW!



"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September 11 th."
-President George W. Bush

Thanks George!


You've admitted you've done bad things, and your day will come. You can avoid that judgement from God by doing the same thing George Bush and every other Christian throughout history has done. Accepting Christ.

I don't think Christ would like your "towel-head" remark. I think Christ himself was a "towel head", a man with dark skin and a pure heart. I don't think would have gone golfing or had cake when people were dying if he was President. Do you?

Matter of fact, I am pretty sure if JC wasn't even the President, if he was like well... a carpenter....in 2005 in say.... Jersey! I bet even JC the average guy Carpenter would have got in his Toyota Prius and driven down with some water and loaves, of course using some skills to multiply when necessary yknow? I don't think he would have put people who did not know how to help people in charge of helping people?

OK enough with that- anyone else who wants to tear the 1st paragraph apart- its so politicaly/factually wrong...ANYWAYS...

In hindsight you can always blame everyone. Because nobody ever reacts to crazy **** perfectly. BUT we all watched the pictures of people actually not knowing what the hell was going on, and not doing their jobs, or even apearing to care. One thing is for sure, the Mayor and the Gov had alot more interaction with all of this, and sure as hell weren't golfing or having cake while everyone was dying.

Hurricane Guru Max Mayfield Briefs President on Katrina
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002472774_mayfield05.html


This 1st one is a fake- but its funny as hell! Hey- At least I told you it was fake! See! I'm honest! This is posted for people to chuckle, its been a hard week.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1871/1101/400/BushVaca.jpg

August 29, 2005
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/images/20050829-5_p082905pm-0125-515h.jpg

Oh- Looks likes George has 1 more thing to say
Whats up George?

JENNA SAYS SHE IS, WELL, SORTA SWEET ON FOSCO, COULD YOU PLEASE HAVE HIM CALL?




http://www.thefirsttwins.com/images/JennaBush.jpg



No Problem, Mr. President.

Jack B.

Ok it's obvious you'll never see this guy for the fraud he is. Saying you believe in something doesn't make it so. Someday, you'll see it, but by then Bush's policies will hurt you financially and rob you of the freedoms your ancestors fought to hold true to this country. By the way, the "towel heads" you refered to are real people, a vast majority of them have done NOTHING to the US. They are real people who have real families, and they too have faith in their God. Maybe you should meet a "towel head" and perhaps you'll learn something. But then again, maybe it's just better they remain faceless to you so you don't have to bother yourself with them and you can just use the prepackaged excuses that Bush uses for bombing people who have nothing to do with 9/11. If I were you, I'd take a real close look at what Bush has done in the past 5 years and truly reflect if his policies match your convictions. I think you'll find they don't.

Bush's payback as you call it shouldn't be at the cost of US soldiers lives. If Bush wanted payback go hire blackwater and kill him yourself and have that blood on your hands, don't bring our troops into it. As far as bad intelligence, read the Downing Street memo to get a hint into what intelligence he really had. No that we've removed Saddam, we've turned Iraq into a Islamic Theocracy, which now has the entire country under Islamic rule. But if we are going to be the world police, why not head into other countries that have oppressive rulers? Amensty International can provide you a long list of countries far worse than Iraq. And I have talked to people from Iraq, directly and they don't share your views of how everything is so sunny and rosey. Fire up skype and you can talk to an Iraqi yourself.

And one last thing, since you brought up the justices issue, justices can't make laws. They use the laws written, take the case before them and apply the law to those issues. There are not "activist" judges. Every judge sees the law in a different way because many laws are written vaguely and thus the loophole exists. Bush takes issue with judges who don't agree with him. One such "activist" judge ruled that the US government was illegally detaining people in Gitmo without even a chance to speak with a lawyer. Some of those detainees are US citizens and are under US laws when detained in US facilities. That's illegal and an "activist" judge ruled that the government broke the law. The "activist" judge is just a clever Karl Rove name for justices Bush doesn't agree with, and when you hear "activist judge" over and over and over from everyone in the administration, it's hard to drown that noise out.

Bush was told day one the most important threat to US security was Bin Laden, guess what day the group assigned to talk about Bin Laden met.....9/11. If you want to talk about Clinton ignoring Bin Laden, you must know that Bush ignored a memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack US" on August 6. What did he do with that information, 9/11 kinda proves what he did. Clinton earns his blame but Bush should own his end too, and you being a US citizen should hold him accountable instead of praising his lame *** attempts to cover up what he failed to do.

If you aren't quite sure about Bush freezing, go check out the 7 minute video online, you'll see a president not doing a **** thing for 7 minutes. That's 7 crucial minutes he wasted. Again, you should hold him accountable and ask questions instead of being a sheep.

[Zecryphon]

What did Bush do when 9/11 happened? You say he froze. Yeah I could see how you would see it that way. But then I remember us going into Afghanastan and kicking some towel-head ***!!! Now he's off somewhere hiding in a cave, and moving around all the time, because he's afraid we're gonna get him just like we got his terrorist buddy Hussein.

Hey George...wanna respond for me?
SURE JACK! AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW MY GIRLS LOVE YOUR SHOW!

I never said Hussein and Bin Laden were working together. When I called them buddies I was lumping them together as terrorists. Bush declared a war on terror and anyone harboring terrorists. That would include Saddam Hussein. He matches my definition of a terrorist.

I don't think Christ would like your "towel-head" remark. I think Christ himself was a "towel head", a man with dark skin and a pure heart. I don't think would have gone golfing or had cake when people were dying if he was President. Do you?

As far as my towel-head remark goes, you're right Jesus probably wouldn't like it too much. Just like he doesn't like everyone taking his name in vain as part of our common every day speech. What I did was sinful. See even us born agains continue to sin, it's part of being human.

Matter of fact, I am pretty sure if JC wasn't even the President, if he was like well... a carpenter....in 2005 in say.... Jersey! I bet even JC the average guy Carpenter would have got in his Toyota Prius and driven down with some water and loaves, of course using some skills to multiply when necessary yknow? I don't think he would have put people who did not know how to help people in charge of helping people?

You still haven't answered the question of why there was a failure by the state of Louisiana government to protect the people of Louisiana. These people live basically in a bucket. They get hit with hurricanes all the time. You think knowing those two things the people themselves would have emergency supplies of food and water on hand just in case of the possibility of something like this happening. Now granted no one truly thought of the worst case scenario, which as I've said before is the levees breaching. They all probably thought that was silly because there is no way that would happen. It's just illogical. You have yet to provide me with proof that Bush defunded the levees to pay for the Iraq war. I'll grant you that according to the budget record that you posted a link to, I still haven't looked at it yet, that yes, he probably did make cuts to the Corps of Engineers. But as a result of the Sierra Club victory in their lawsuit against the Corps of Engineers they were ordered to stop working on the levees in 1997. That's years before Bush made budget cuts.

My posts are getting off the original topic here which is the failure of all governments to respond to a national catastrophe. I still fail to see how Bush can know what to send and where to send it, when he doesn't know the extent of the damage, and neither does anyone else. All I saw was a mayor who's responsibility it is to protect the citizens of the city, running through the streets telling everyone to get out. Great plan. Another great plan was warehousing thousands of people in the Superdome without food and water or power. But I guess Bush was supposed to stockpile those things for him right?

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

[Zecryphon]

Ok it's obvious you'll never see this guy for the fraud he is. Saying you believe in something doesn't make it so. Someday, you'll see it, but by then Bush's policies will hurt you financially and rob you of the freedoms your ancestors fought to hold true to this country.

I'd say the policies of Bush, Sr. and Bill Clinton did more to hurt me financially than anything George Bush, Jr. has done. Thanks to his daddy we got the biggest tax hike in history. I thought G.W. would be exactly like his dad which is why I didn't vote for him the first time he ran for ofice. I voted for Pat Buchanan. I'm not a registered republican either. I'm a registerd member of the Reform party. But I'd like you to give me some examples of how you could do things I'd better. All I see you doing is making claims that you can't back up. Typical liberal behavior, point fingers, assign blame and offer no solution.

By the way, the "towel heads" you refered to are real people, a vast majority of them have done NOTHING to the US. They are real people who have real families, and they too have faith in their God. Maybe you should meet a "towel head" and perhaps you'll learn something. But then again, maybe it's just better they remain faceless to you so you don't have to bother yourself with them and you can just use the prepackaged excuses that Bush uses for bombing people who have nothing to do with 9/11. If I were you, I'd take a real close look at what Bush has done in the past 5 years and truly reflect if his policies match your convictions. I think you'll find they don't.

You're right the Iraqi people are real people, with real families. I've been friends with people of that descent so I know exactly who they are and what they're like. Don't need you to come along and educate me, thanks anyways. You're forgetting that Bush declared war on terrorism. Unfortunately, Saddam Hussein through his own actions falls into that category. I notice you haven't responded to any allegations I made about the behavior of Saddam or his sons towards the people they ruled over. Maybe that's because you can't, because I am right about how they slaughtered their own people. Do you think Jesus would look the other way in the face of such atrocities? That seems to be what you want us to do. People are suffering in other parts of the world? But it doesn't affect me, so why should I care. That's the attitude I'm getting from you.

Like I said Bush's presidency is bigger than the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Look at the work he's accomplished in Sudan and other places. You can do a Google search for that information.

Bush's payback as you call it shouldn't be at the cost of US soldiers lives.[/quote

What do you think we have soldiers for? Soldiers know what they are signing up for when they join the military. Now granted alot of them sign up for the armed forces to help pay for college, but that's not why the military was instituted in the first place.

They're trained to kill other people, and risk their own lives in the process. It always amazes me that people have the attitude of "Oh our soldiers shouldn't have to die to enforce the policies of the U.S." That's what soldiers do. They take orders and they follow them. They don't have the luxury you do of playing arm-chair president. Their job is to kill and dispose of enemy personnel. And they know that in doing that job, there is a chance that they themselves will die. They're willing to pay the ultimate price, so we can enjoy the freedom of bashing presidents that we dont' agree with.

[quote] But if we are going to be the world police, why not head into other countries that have oppressive rulers? Amensty International can provide you a long list of countries far worse than Iraq.

We didn't opt for the job of world police, but when you're the most powerful and richest nation on the planet, people kinda tend to look to you for help. If you believe anything Amnesty International says, you probably also think that the ACLU is interested in protecting the civil liberties of the American people. They're not, trust me.

I didn't say everything was sunny and rosy in Iraq, I said ask them if they would rather have Hussein back in power. Ask them, and tell me what they say. Of course Iraq is probably alot like the United States or any other country in the world, there will always be people who don't like the way things currently are with the government in power. Just depends on who you talk to I guess. I've heard soldiers say that the Iraqis they see and talk to, are much happier now than they were before.

And one last thing, since you brought up the justices issue, justices can't make laws. They use the laws written, take the case before them and apply the law to those issues.

Justices can't make laws, that's true. But look at what has happened in Massachussettes with the gay marriage issue. Every time that issue came up before the legislature it was always struck down in a vote. Why? Because the legislature held that the definition of marriage was between a man and a woman. That was until the legislature, whose job it is to interpret law, not make it, decided that a marriage would now be defined as a union between two consentaul adults. The sexual gender of the adults didn't matter anymore. They made law. They did not interpret it. It's that type of abuse of power that I was referring to. Next time I will apparently have to explain what I'm talking about so you get it.

Now I read on the ACLJ website the other day that John Roberts will not get nominated until he changes his stance on Roe v. Wade. This happened to be said by Patrick Leahy. Are you gonna tell me that's fair? That someone will be denied a role on the Supreme Court because he doesn't share the same political views as Patrick Leahy. Sounds like someone is using their position of power to shape the courts to their liking. How partisan can you get? It just happens to be a democrat in this case. That is an abuse of power and absolutely wrong.

The term activist judge means anyone who uses their position on the court to further the agenda of a particular segment of soceity or political action group or a political party. They're more concerned with the politics of an issue, than with the legality of an issue. That's an activist judge. I've known about them long before Karl Rove and George Bush, maybe you haven't though and this is all news to you.

Bush was told day one the most important threat to US security was Bin Laden, guess what day the group assigned to talk about Bin Laden met.....9/11. If you want to talk about Clinton ignoring Bin Laden, you must know that Bush ignored a memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack US" on August 6. What did he do with that information, 9/11 kinda proves what he did. Clinton earns his blame but Bush should own his end too, and you being a US citizen should hold him accountable instead of praising his lame *** attempts to cover up what he failed to do.

I'm going to assume that when you say August 6, you're talking about August 6, 2001. If I'm correct in my assumption that's a little over a month before the third attack on the United States. Talk about having a problem just dumped in your lap. I don't know what I could do to stop an attack that was going to occur in a little over a month. Do you? I need a little more time to think and plan, not just go off half-cocked with all guns blazing and looking like a war monger, or a raving lunatic. In matters of war you need to be calm and calculating.

If you aren't quite sure about Bush freezing, go check out the 7 minute video online, you'll see a president not doing a **** thing for 7 minutes. That's 7 crucial minutes he wasted. Again, you should hold him accountable and ask questions instead of being a sheep.

I've seen the tape numerous times. What would you prefer he have done? Make a scene in front of a classroom full of little kids? Yeah, that would have impressed me. What could you accomplish in seven minutes? I mean granted he was probably in shock. That's a normal reaction to horrific news. Human beings tend to do that. Maybe you're different. As far as my being a sheep because I support George Bush, well that's just your opinion and you're entitled to it. As far as Bush's actions not matching uor pre-conceived notion of what makes a person a good follower of Christ, again it's just your opinion. But it's a good thing I don't worship George Bush, I worship Christ. It's what Christ said and did, that I care about. Bush is a man of faith, I have no way to prove that he is not. He accepted Christ as his savior. He's a Christian, whether you believe it or not, doesn't make it any less true. I shudder to think what would have happened to this country had 9/11 happened on Al Gore's watch. That's the stuff of nightmares.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

P.S. I'm not going to talk further about my faith, or Bush's faith, or what it takes to qulaify as a Christian. This thread started out about whether or not Bush was a liberator or a liar and has turned to hurricane Katrina and the failure of all governments to respond in way we all would have liked. This is not a faith based thread. If you want one, I will be more than happy to start one and we can debate this until the day we die. However, I have found in the past that very few people on here can talk intelligently and calmy about a subject as personal and inflammatory as religion. If I was assured there would be no name calling, flaming etc, I would do it. But I've been in that discussion already. It's not possible.

Again, you are amazing....I never defended Saddam, I stated if we are going to start taking out dictators, we're gonna be very busy for a very long time.

As far as what Bush could do on policy let's start with a few things, repeal the bankruptcy bill, repeal the "tax relief" that amounts to 300 dollars for you and me and about 52K for Dick Cheney and people of his economic level, get out of Iraq and focus on real threats, repeal the energy bill that provides huge winfalls to the Oil and Gas industry, remove the 6,000 pork spending addendums to the transportation bill which includes a bridge to be built for 50 people in Alaska, stop flying around the country selling a medicare bill that hurts seniors, repeal a call for the passage of that bill, repeal the medicare prescription bill which is costing far more than the white house stated it would in the first place, repeal the Patriot Act which is nothing more than a bullshit way to steal your constitutional rights, then resign from office immediately and take Dick with him. That's what I'd suggest he do.

Perhaps you need to take a brief look at the oath our nations military forces take when they join. They take an oath to DEFEND the united states, not to be a killing machine. Our troops shouldn't be used for payback, if we are truly in danger then we have the right to defend ourselves, but what we are doing in Iraq isn't self defense and you know that. Since you aren't clear about geography or history, 15 of the 19 hijackers came from a country called Saudi Arabia. They also have a history of killing people who disagree with the king. So why aren't we in there blowing the "towel heads" up there? When you were talking to people of "that desent" did you call them "towel heads" to their face? If not, you should start, I hear they look fondly on that.

What happened in Massachusets was a judge looking at the law and looking at the state constitution and saying the law was unconstitutional. Laws in every single state has been ruled unconstituational at one time or another. Familiar with the law in Arizona that required all business to be done in English? A judge read it and read the constitution and threw out the law. A judge can't write the law, he can say if it's legal or not. If it isn't, the state house and senate can work on writing another law and rewording it to make it legal. Obviously your issue is gay marriage and you're pissed that a judge didn't agree with your beliefs, he took a stance that the law wasn't constitutional and I'm sorry but that's not making a law. You should know the difference.

The memo Bush received on August 6 was the 35th memo he received about Bin Laden, read the 9/11 report. So I don't buy the lame excuse that he needed time to think about it. He had 35 memos to give him a hint and he ignored them. People died because of it.

So now that you have some reading to do I will bid you a nice evening.

[jimk]

I'm staying out of the argument, but I just have to say that "towel heads" comment was WAY, WAY out of line.

Most Arab men don't wear head coverings...it's not only racist, but stupidly inaccurate.

[Zecryphon]

When you were talking to people of "that desent" did you call them "towel heads" to their face? If not, you should start, I hear they look fondly on that.

No I did not. Beause when I knew these people I had no problem or prejudice towards them. That has now changed. I personally can't tell the difference between an Iraqi and a Saudi. Just like I can't tell the difference between a Chinese person and a Korean. I lump people into really big categories. White, Black, Middle Eastern, Asian etc. If you can tell the difference my hats off to you. You're a better judge of ethnicity than I am. I generally don't insult people as a rule of thumb. But in threads like this one I tend to get worked up and the towel head remark is proof of that. Get over it. And do you really think they don't have little hateful names for us too?

Obviously your issue is gay marriage and you're pissed that a judge didn't agree with your beliefs, he took a stance that the law wasn't constitutional and I'm sorry but that's not making a law. You should know the difference.

No, my issue is that the legislature changed the definition of the word marriage. Do I have a problem with two people of the same sex being married? Yeah, I do. Because it's a blatant perversion of God's plan for human sexuality. Just think of the logistics of two men having sex. Does that seem natural to you. When you learned about the birds and the bees in school did they use the example of a man and a woman, or two men and or two women? This is really common sense stuff.

Now, if they want to have a civil union that's another issue. But even the homosexuals are finding out that being married ain't the big bowl of cherries they thought it would be. They're just like heterosexuals in that respect. Their divorce rate is just as high as ours. Their sole reason for doing it is to bring legitimacy to an illegitimate lifestyle. A lifestyle that God declared to be an abomination in Leviticus chapter 18. You can look it up.

It's funny how when they want something they band together under the banner of the gay community. But if you take a close look at that community. They're just as disjointed and seperate from each other as people in any other community. For instance, gay people don't like bi-sexual people. Alot of gay men don't like lesbians. There's just too many little groups within the gay community for them to all get along with each other. Yet when it comes to marriage or any other issue they want to pursue they band together as the "gay community" united in purpose for their right to an alternative lifestyle.


The memo Bush received on August 6 was the 35th memo he received about Bin Laden, read the 9/11 report. So I don't buy the lame excuse that he needed time to think about it. He had 35 memos to give him a hint and he ignored them. People died because of it.

Hmmm... 35 memos huh? Yeah you're right that is alot. But 35 memos compared to two attacks? You can hardly compare the two. Clinton didn't have 35 memos, he had two attacks. Yet Clinton's lack of a response has never been addressed by you. You say Clinton should shoulder some of the blame. Wow, such stern words for a man who's refusal to react to two previous attacks, led directly to a third attack on the U.S. An attack that you want to conveniently blame on Bush.

Osama had executed two attacks previously, and gotten no response for it, of course he was gonna do a third one. There were two things he wasn't planning on. One, he didn't think the towers would collapse, and second, he didn't expect the retaliation he received. Yeah, things changed in the U.S. We went from a president who preferred to get done by people to one who does something about people. You say Bush should resign because you don't agree with is policies. Yet as I remember it, wasn't your little glory boy from Arkansas impeached?

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecryphon

Ok, I have to put it down like this, if the choice I have is between a president who ****s an intern and a president who ****s us all, I'll take the intern two ways till Sunday.

The reason you didn't say "towel heads" to their face is because you'd be in the hospital and you know it. You need to learn some respect and you need to learn that terrorists aren't Arab, they can be of all shapes, colors and sizes. Don't you remember Oklahoma City? 2 white guys did that.

I don't give a **** what Adam and Steve do in their home. If they want to get married, great. They don't have to invite you and you don't have to buy them a gift. It doesn't do a **** thing to you, your life or your marriage. I don't give a **** if their love making is natural, if they don't do it on my lawn, I could care less. When did the Republican party become the party of having to get involved in other people's business anyways? I know plenty of straight people who have no business marrying, my best friend is one of them. So to me, I don't define marriage by gender, I define it by love, trust, respect and a bond between two people. That's it. Period.

Every minority group in this country has issues with others in the group. I know dark skinned african americans who don't like light skinned ones. I know Mexicans from Arizona who don't like Mexicans from Mexico. So what if they don't like each other? If you are going to discount people who don't like each other, I think you'll be really busy. Protestants have issues with Catholics, Jews have issues with Catholics, Muslims have issues with Christians, Assembly of God has issues with Methodists...the list goes on and on. Hell we can't even play a college football game without people having some issue with a fan from the other team.

The only reason Bush isn't going through an impechment of his own is that that Capitol Hill is controlled by Republicans. The Downing Street memo would be more than enough to begin the proceedings. I didn't say why Bush should resign before, I just said he should. Why should he resign you ask, because he is a liar and dangerous to the well being of the people of the United States not to mention incompetent and a moron.

[Zecryphon]

Ya know something Aaron you've really gotta get over this whole towel head remark I made in a moment of anger. I apologize that I did it, it was wrong, out of line and not the way I normally behave.

Now that that's taken care of, on to other business. Thanks to you and I this thread has gotten way off track. You'll never understand me and I'll never understand you. Life goes on though. I am now not going to post any more in this thread until I get an idea of where it is going. If it goes back to hurricane Katrina, great. If not, I'll just have to see where it ends up.

A wise person once told me that intelligent discussion does not happen on these forums, arguing happens on these forums. You and I have proved that for the last one and a half pages. I'm done arguing. It accomplishes nothing.

Your Brother in Christ,

Zecrypon

[kickasspodcast]

This is just a totally random thought I had to add.

Aaron! I just listened to your last show, been a long
time since I heard the big show and I just realized how cool it is.
Love it man! Gonna have to subscribe for sure.
Hope all goes well with you and the Mrs. btw. Some things
are a helluva lot more important than forum debates.
Its clear that you totally understand this from your last
show. Totally Dug it.

I think this is coming to a crawl. Check out all
the timelines if Z, Hitt, or Jim need anymore
clarification. Its pretty obvious when people
begin to Quote the Washington Times and
National Review Online that things are quickly
spiraling into stupidity, but hey- that's what
you get when you get online are argue with a
buncha true believers.

Seriously though Aaron- you should have emailed
me about the Pimpin Points Contest! We would
have whored you like nobody else. Hopefully
its at least a quarterly thing ya? Well least the
good peeps at BDline won, they deserve it.
I love the sincerity and normalcy of your show,
and I am one of those persons who tends
to loathe the "husband and wife" show. But yours
is sincere and engaging enough that its great.

OK enough back-patting. I do hope everything
goes well for you 2!

Gotta Run-

Jack B.

Almost forgot-
totally loved the most recent 9/6
http://morningcoffeenotes.com/
David Winer talks about this very issue.
you all should check it out.

Thank you for the kind words about the show. Husband and wife shows are actually pretty hard to do because your wife only lets you talk about so much before she says "ummmm no that isn't going to work." Jenny has been very supportive of the show and very open, especially after the problems with our first round of invitro. So I thank you for the kind words again and hope you'll stay subscribed. :)

[kickasspodcast]

Sure will Man!

I think that alot of people like Husband/Wife shows. I am just not one of them. That's why when I listened to 34 I was suprised to rather enjoy it.
A good mix of music, promo's, planned segments, and that sincerity
of dealing with life and your wife that I mentioned before. Most
hubby and wife shows are way too much of something, I just can't
put my finger on it- I will definitely stay subscribed/vote.

Jack B.

Speaking of promos, if you have one, send it over to Ihateyourshow@gmail.com