itunes free and gonna stay that way!

[Keeme]

I have never heard the Daily Download (but have been meaning to do so)and just started listening to Soccergirl (who they seem not to like)... If i-prison is treating these pod-casters this way then I want no part of it!

Sure I may be shooting myself in the foot but I did not start doing this for as many Apples as I could eat. I say WHO NEEDS THEM? I don't! They will probably frown on me because I am not PODSAFE

"OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOO Spooky me"

What they did to the "poop man" (or seems they are doing) is what Podcasters are not! Am I wrong? Let me know because this Keeme is standing up against a monster and if I am wrong I would appreciate a whisper or gentle nudge to help me sit my street pharmaceutical induced Pod-*** down. If it just all of us having trouble with code then so be it... but c'mon folks... these cats know what they are doing... they are weeding people out... at will.... they will probably have positioning statements that say "We regret to inform you that YOU SUCK" or something that means they are taking their ball and going home!

I have my own balls and they can't play with them!

[Keeme thinks about that last line... "should I edit it out"? and decides NO]

If I am correct... WHO IS WITH ME?!

PUT ON THAT FREAKING TOGA AND LETS RALLY AGAINST THE EVIL EMPIRE!

LONG LIVE DOING IT THE WAY WE WANT HOW WE WANT... We are WEB-CASTERS (as someone on here stated earlier).

If they don't take all of us... they should not have any of us.

"OK, wheres my drink"?

[spartacusroosevelt]

I have decided to say screw it and not add the itunes specific tags. First I am an open standards kind of guy and I would raise holy hell if Microsoft was doing their typical "embrace, extend, (extinguish)" crap to RSS. Why should I cut Apple slack for the same thing? Why itunes can't figure out an open standard is beyond me. I would begrudge them a itunes category specific tag to work with thier hierarchy, but replicating almost every tag? I hand roll my feed (cuz I'm like that) and I am not going to add to my work load.

Plus after 5 shows I am running at 94% RIAA free. That 6% would probably get me booted from the directory anyway.

So my decision is to just let the chips fall where they may and keep my feed like it is.

[docsnavely]

the following is in no way an endorsement for iTunes


I have decided to say screw it and not add the itunes specific tags. First I am an open standards kind of guy and I would raise holy hell if Microsoft was doing their typical "embrace, extend, (extinguish)" crap to RSS. Why should I cut Apple slack for the same thing?

apple is not going against open standards. they are just saying that if you include their options in your feed, you will be able to use the new features within their interface.

by all means should you do your own thing. if you feel that apple tags will not benefit you or your audience, by all means, do as you please. that's the wonder of the open source that is podcasting..... no one can force you to do crap against your wishes.

[Keeme]

For those who have made it to i-Tunes Congrats! I am not saying jump ship or anything like that (hell we all want more people to listen to out sh*t -pun intended). All I am trying to say is watch yer six... now you are all shiny and new... until they DECIDE "no soup for you"!

[slodaddy]

Dear Podcasters,
We thank those of you who have complied with our mandatory feed modifications. Our profits are on the rise and you will surely profit also.
Love,
MacApple the deceptive

[kneelw]

Keeme - fight the power, man! I've had very mixed feelings about this whole iTunes thing, jumped through all the hoops to get our show added and now I hear they're taking shows off the store. Apple's perogative I guess, but it seems to me like they made this big deal about podcasting then ignored the podcasters that are already out there doing it every day. I mean, look who shows up on the front page. Disney??? Morning DJs??? That's why I stopped listening to commercial radio in the first place.

Also, I've had some cocktails. Interpret that as you may.

[kickasspodcast]

Hell Ya Keeme~!

We are holding off for quite a while to really see what Apple has in mind and how respectfully they treat the artisan podcasters. I applaud you for standing up Keeme. You aren't shooting yourself in the foot at all. As soon as they blatently try to re-content or exploit, they will be sued by the masses. I think they are smarter than this but they are certainly no more considerate.

I think one of the unspoken truths about itunes is that it just isn't cool. I mean really... Its chocked full of ads for Disney and ABC and the MF'n Itunes New Music Podcast. It feels like walking into a Wal-Mart and then looking for some undergound radio shows... If the technology or the inclusiveness of the podcast function of itunes was outstanding, I would be the 1st one to submit my feed. The whole feel of it is clunky and counter intuitive. But that having been said, it just doesn't look, work or feel cool.

Bottom line is, Itunes cannot list your show unless you allow them. It will be those of us on the outside who have the most control. I do not look down on anyone or shame anyone for being in itunes. I see all the reasons why, but it just isn't right for our show.

OK Keeme- Fosco and I are with you - We can start an informal pod-gang of itunes free web-casters if you want.... Anyways


have fun...

Check out the new promos!!!! They Rock! We actually have real equipment this time.
http://kickasspodcast.com/newkickasspromo.mp3
http://kickasspodcast.com/foscokickasspromo.mp3
http://kickasspodcast.com/stoneypromo.mp3


Jack

[Keeme]

I like the Informal gang stuff... lets do it!

Just wanted to clear up something (a reader of my Blog helped me "redifine" my objection to all this).

Why Keeme is not happy with i-Tunes

What we thought
1) This was supposed to be open to all without censorship (unless you played unlicensed tunes). You had to label yourself EXPLICIT if you were.

What they did
2) They started Censorsing (by removing folks or not allowing them in).

What they are doing/not doing
3) Censorship without notification to those affected (Casters or Listeners).

This is business... and I won't do business like that.. not when my brothers/sisters in catsing are being affected.

If you would like to read the Post I wrote (warning KEEME IS CRAZY AND WRITES LIKE HE LIVES).

BAD, BAD APPLE (http://www.keeme.com/haggis/archives/2005/07/bad_apple_bad_a.html#comments)
i-Tunes free and lovin it!

[SFEley]

You all really need to relax, listen to your breathing for a minute or two, and get some perspective.

iTunes is a podcatching client with a directory built in. For these purposes, that's all it is. They maintain the directory, so they get to decide what goes into it. Of course they're doing it for the money, and of course they're putting the bland white bread up front. Why does this shock anyone? Podcasters aren't their core audience. They're targeting their directory to millions of music listeners with middle-class incomes aged 10 to 55, not to you guys.

Respect for "the community" was never a condition. They don't have a stake in your podcast. Their mission, their responsibility as a public company, is to make money. It's not to deliver you an audience. I do agree that there are a lot of things they could have done better, and they made some really dumb, avoidable mistakes which gained them nothing. But I also have some sympathy for them. If you're a businessman trying to make a living, having to listen to "artisans" who insist that you should understand them completely and cater to their art, while they have no interest in understanding your business, probably gets pretty wearying ater a while.

I look at iTunes as a marketing tool. I don't expect them to boost my audience tenfold without my lifting a finger, or to shape their business around my desires. But it's a lot easier for me to say to potential listeners, "Do you have iTunes? Great, just look up 'Escape Pod'" than it is to give people a URL and detailed instructions on how to set up iPodder Lemon. They're an easy-to-use podcatcher with a directory, one that many people already have. That's how I view them.

If you want to view them instead as the Great Satan of capitalist imperialism, well, go right ahead. But the funny thing about capitalism is that it tends to work, whether people are out waving flags on the street or not. It can tolerate the flag-wavers because they'll never really hurt it.

If you want to opt out of them, that's cool. If you ignore iTunes, podcasting is exactly the same as it was last Monday. You haven't lost anything. Instead, you've simply failed to gain something.

[Craig]

I have to go with SFEley on this. If you expect Apple to list your podcast in their directory for free with nothing in it for them and have content in your podcast that is potentially damaging to them legally or socially you're nuts. When Apple originally announced iTunes 4.9 there was a review process mentioned that podcasts would have to go through before being accepted into the directory, so the fact that some of these podcasts made it into the directory in the first place is what's surprising, not that they're now being removed. Bottom line: iTunes is not an open directory and never promised to be one.

Craig

[Keeme]

Wow... lost my post (I got to remember to copy then submit).

Here is the bullet point version
* [breathing better now, pecocets taking effect]
* I agree with the business aspect of your (eloquent) response
* Not mad for myself, but for those who have (seemingly) invested time and effort and compliance only to be treated like 2nd class customers
* I hope I am wrong (if so I would be the first to apologize and jump on the bandwagon, maybe... on the jumping)
* You were correct in stating "They don't have a stake in your podcast" mostly... see podcasts are associated with i-PODS and they are associated with i-Tunes... so all those outside of our group (the listeners) will see it that way too.

Maybe other business people will pick up on this and it will be the best thing for us all... they may have helped themselves out of becoming a monopoly! competition is good... greed is good... but this affects us all at some level so Keeme thinks it "may" not be so good.

Maybe we should ask the proverbial salesperson "Nice car, does it come in another color"?

Thanks for understanding where I was coming from. i-Tunes free is my thing for now.

[jeffoest]

Wow - SFEley - good post.

Keeme, I understand, respect and even admire your impulse on this. But if you can put the emotions aside for awhile and look at the longer-term picture. The iTunes express is the fastest train in town and you can ride for free (probably). Ok, maybe you have to wait at the platform for a bit longer than others around you - oh well, that sucks - but there will be another train coming soon and you'll get in a few days ... Sure, you can pass this up and take a slower train but it will take you longer to achieve the same goals.

It's free. What'ya want?

LOL - hey - still I admire your independent spirit.

[kickasspodcast]

You all really need to relax, listen to your breathing for a minute or two, and get some perspective.

You are so entirely misguided and defensive its sad. Just about every paragraph you wrote was entirely missing the point of what Keeme was saying.

Look- We don't need to relax- we aren't even freaking out. You don't see any of us saying F- Itunes or WE HATE ITUNES - or telling other people not to use it.


Respect for "the community" was never a condition.

No- its only the right thing to do.


They're an easy-to-use podcatcher with a directory, one that many people already have. That's how I view them.

Its not really that easy to use for 1st timers. Listen to what Dave Winer has to say about itunes. I think he is right. Its not a threat because they naturally insult people. Its also not a threat because the software is clunky and poorly designed.

"Do you have iTunes? Great, just look up 'Escape Pod'" than it is to give people a URL and detailed instructions on how to set up iPodder Lemon.

This is the whole scam dude!
You don't need Itunes or any Ipodder to get a show.
Why do people keep insulting new listeners by telling them this?!?

That fact that you come it from this way is offensive and condescending to people who aren't yet hip to podcasting. Less and less people will be turned on if they have to dick around with RSS and Ipodders and Itunes just to hear your show. Give them your show- if it is good, they will listen again. Give them a direct link- hell, email them the link to your show when its released. This is the easiest and most efficient form of syndication. If you listen to sooo many podcasts that you need another progam to manage them then you don't need have anything explained to you other than OPML. Most average listeners will not need a seperate program or function to listen to the 3-10 shows they may listen to somewhat regularly.

IF you want to annoy your potential users by immediately directing them to the ad-crazy itunes- or even the more friendy ipodders, go for it- I have more repect for people than to insult their intelegence talking ipodders and itunes.
Its just a freakin mp3 you can give someone a link to.

I think you are just reacting to the fact that so many people aren't hip to itunes. We never said it was the Satan of anything. It seems more obvious that some people don't like the source of their new listeners to be trashed.
That's just petty.

If you think we are all entirely wrong- you need to read this article from another thread

http://www.corante.com/podcasting/2005/07/07/how_itunes_49_got_it_wrong.php

Trust me, Apple is watching people OUTSIDE of itunes a helluva lot more than they people they already own. If they are the source of even 51% of your listeners, you are a slave to them forever. This is yet another reason why the Itunes Free Audio Webcast Gang (IFAWG) will eventually pwn all others. Muhahahahah

[kickasspodcast]

Why do people keep saying itunes is free.
It couldn't be further from free.

Everytime you open the podcast function of itunes you are bombarded with advertisements before you can navigate your way.

From this we all should be able to extrapolate that any time you are subjected to massive ammounts of advertising there is a very real cost to you the consumer.

Itunes is only free if you give no value to your time or to the content to which you expose yourself.


Jack

[Craig]

Why do people keep saying itunes is free.
It couldn't be further from free.

Everytime you open the podcast function of itunes you are bombarded with advertisements before you can navigate your way.
I don't know what ads you're talking about Jack unless it's the promotions for the big name podcasts, in which case it's no different than the promotions (many paid for, I should point out) and profiles Podcast Alley runs on its home page and at the top of this page. Are you planning on boycotting Podcast Alley as well?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blindly defending Apple; I agree with many of the points in the Corante article. But you weaken your argument when you make statements like the one above.

Craig

[slodaddy]

If I wanna listen to a commercial radio podcast, I need not look beyond the iTunes directory. Thanks, iTunes, for making it so convenient. I definitely need more commercial radio and less artistic drivel.

[Craig]

If I wanna listen to a commercial radio podcast, I need not look beyond the iTunes directory. Thanks, iTunes, for making it so convenient. I definitely need more commercial radio and less artistic drivel.
THAT'S the biggest problem I have with iTunes at the moment...all mention of the "indie" podcasts has been removed from the podcasting home page.

Craig

[jeffoest]

And I completely agree as well - it would be nice if they had more of a "spotlight on indies" (how's that for marketing) section.. but maybe they will in the future if the market/competition dictates that that will make their shop more desireable.

My main thing, though is, so iTunes is not perfect. Nothing fundamentally has changed for us, the podcasters. We're still better off getting listed in as many free directories as we can. Who knows how people are going to find us.

And try to control their method of accessing us as I think Jack was indicating? Forget about it! lol Hey - our collective listeners are going to use every tool in the book to listen to our shows - iTunes, Ipodders, Dopplers, yada, yada, yada, we really have little control.... that's the whole idea of using XML feed-based technologies. it's all good. It's all just distribution.

Jack, perhaps your questioning the need for an XML feed for your show so you can control how your show is presented and distributed. Well - perhaps you would be more comfortable to have your listeners download their shows manually at your website. I have no doubt that you know your customers and their needs better than the rest of us. You should just go with what is right for you.

[slodaddy]

You can't fault iTunes for making a smart business move. Assuming this was a purely business move, logic dictates that eventually their directory will contain only podcasts with the biggest listener numbers. My interpretation is that the small podcasters paved the way, and iTunes moved in and constructed the toll booth.

[SFEley]

THAT'S the biggest problem I have with iTunes at the moment...all mention of the "indie" podcasts has been removed from the podcasting home page.

Huh -- you're right. That does suck.

My guess: too many people clicked on the "Dawn & Drew" icon and were totally unprepared for what they got, and made a massive din. Or, perhaps, the press did. I do know they're taking a lot of heat right now for having decency standards but applying them inconsistently.

[Keeme]

Rockwell is back in the lineup "Hip Hip Hooray"!

I think losing his place in line really "stinks" and the explanation for why they did it seemed half baked. Until the full explanation comes out "No Apologies" for my stand. I bet many casters on the i-Tunes are now looking to see if they have been pulled off... and they may not have the luxury of the entire community speak up for them.

"Chris, Glad you got the show back on the board, hope you climb the ranks as fast as before"!

[camilian]

If anyone else is removed please let us all know, would be interesting to track who apple is removing and why.

[kickasspodcast]

@ Craig-

I am totally talking about the "Big Name Podcasts" ABC, Disney, etc... So to start, its good you get what i mean when I say advertisements.

I dunno.... I would not boycot PCA for just about any reason, its been kind and tolerant to me and my opinions. I guess I just draw a distinction when it's a website like PCA and an actual aplication that people buy (as a part of what they get upon buying a new ipod) or even download to use to buy mp3s. If I get itunes with my ipod, I shouldn't be bombarded with ad's just to use it to search for podcasts. If I don't have an ipod and got itunes to buy songs, why would they discourage me to search for podcasts by putting so much corporate advertising in the way. I would have downloaded
the program to be a customer anyway. Its the same old thing, I paid for the product and they still have to try and sell me more stuff. It just gets disrespectful.

I see less advertisements using limewire, or bearshear than I ever do itunes, but I would expect the exact opposite. Doesn't limewire have to advertise just to make a dime? Not as if they are making 4 million a day on mp3s like itunes.


All I think people were expecting from itunes is pretty much what PCA does. A simple and fair directory, with accurate catagories. Not to mention not having to totally redo their XML. If i boycotted every website with advertisements, I wouldn't have many places to surf would i? But a seperate program that has a directory function? Should I really expect such copious advertisements from that? I guess I should.

As far as getting rid of "INDIE" on itunes. hahaha that one is easy!
What they had listed under indie podcasts were never really indie podcasts. It didn't take long for people to realize that. They decided to look up the definition of "indie" and realized there was absolutely no money in that.

I guess the iFAWG crew will just keep a rollin'


jack

[dcolanduno]

If I wanna listen to a commercial radio podcast, I need not look beyond the iTunes directory. Thanks, iTunes, for making it so convenient. I definitely need more commercial radio and less artistic drivel.
THAT'S the biggest problem I have with iTunes at the moment...all mention of the "indie" podcasts has been removed from the podcasting home page.

Craig

Yea, it wouldn't bother me if I saw more of them spread out into the other categories more. It would be a GOOD thing if they had about half 'small' podcasts in each of those categories. Then people that don't understand 'indie' or have a bad taste for it because of the perception that 'indie' means some foreign film, or art-house type music... might just assume that some of the content we all enjoy in podcasting is just as 'normal' as those other shows they put in there.

[jimk]

$4mil a day? By that math, Apple made $1.456 billion gross with iTunes last year. Which means they sold 1.456 billion songs.

And they sell AAC files, not mp3s.

[Keeme]

MAN! 4 Mil a day? DANG!!!

Do most podcasters think some of that will fall to them (sure the guy podcasting about a rock "This is a show about me and my rock" may not get anything but the rest of y'all).

OK am back to i-Tunes free.. which also means listener free!

LMAO what a pendejo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendejo)I am.

[radioclash]

I've now taken out the iTunes tags in my feed - they were causing problems (might have been me, but I'd had several goes trying to get them to work right) and were making my feed mega-bulky.

They never have listed Radio Clash and probably never will...I seem to get more people via word of mouth than directories anyway - the people who are listed some have me in their favourites (thank you!) so I get people that way.

Although I understand that Apple wasn't helping the community, the whole feed thing was a fiasco, you have to admit that, and taking non-offensive casts like Chris Rockwell's off doesn't make me want to be listed.

The thing is, with the nature of RSS and aggregated feeds this is unpoliceable for Apple...

They could review and add a feed one week, and then the next shows that violate their TOS could join that feed or be added. Do they remove the whole feed just for the one show that violates? And how do they spot it if it's a large aggregate feed like OpenPodcast? There's more and more of these (and they might not start as aggregate feeds either!).

The ethos of 1 Feed = 1 Show shows how little Apple knows about RSS.