Trick of the trade or just shameless promotion

[dharmapath]

A podcaster who is in this directory recently changed their feed to reflect higher in RSS readers like Bloglines and Apple itunes. I refreshed my feeds and low and behold they were at the top.

I think this trick is just shameless promotion of a podcast and somthing like this just cheapens the community.

This and that with jeff and pat now reads -this and that..... So we all know putting a dash in front of our podcasts will now get us at the top of feeds since most are alphabetical.

What do you think? I am totaly off base or did this podcast do somthing lame?

[no1slistening]

I only know Jeff from these forums, but I don't think he's that type of person to do something like that. I'm not really sure it would be shameless self-promotion anyway. Some podcasters put symbols around their names to dress it up. But I think in This and That's case it sounds like it may be a typo.

[no1slistening]

Welcome to the Alley, BTW.

[dharmapath]

My podcast has been on the Alley for a few months. I just havn't been posting too much. BTW I like the podcast and I think they have good content.

[podcastone]

This and that with jeff and pat now reads -this and that..... So we all know putting a dash in front of our podcasts will now get us at the top of feeds since most are alphabetical.

What do you think? I am totaly off base or did this podcast do somthing lame?

Just wait till podcasters start emulating the Yellow Pages ;) Be on the lookout for "AAA [insert name of show]" - LOL . I've seen plenty of legit ones e.g. /Nerd, .Assassins, etc. Its their show name and not a scam to get bumped up the list.

Jeff
----
Podcast One
http://podcastone.blogspot.com

[Charles]

I'm going to be announcing my new podcast network starting with

1) !!!!!00000 show

2) !!!!!0000 show

3) !!!!!000 show

4) !!!!!00 show

5) !!!!!0 show

6) !!!!! show

7) !!!! show

8} !!! show

9) !! show

10) ! show


All totally unscripted, never totally boring monotone, never just 5 mins and the only Podcast network with a guarantee to measurable 'Smartenize' you and never talk down to you with Target bs. :wink:

8)

-

[ferg]

I don't think it's a big deal.
There are already several feeds in the audioblog category stacked with special characters to move them to the top. I think it's lame that, it seems, NO directory filters "The"s off of names so all the "The"s don't get lumped together. This and that would end up effectively lumped with all of them as well.

I think that it's fine for people to do what they can to get their feed to stand out, so long as it's not detrimental to anyone else.

After all, why should one podcast be listed first over another?

[jeffoest]

I now have a 7kbps (!) connection so I just found this. I made the change last night but if am wondering if it's "tacky".... I'm certainly not commited to it - in fact - there are some things I don't like about it - namely the name looks ugly and there IS the perception problem. So it's not clear to me that it IS indeed a good solution.

Let me know what you guys think. I'm pretty mixed about it, myself. I vascillated off and on about it last night and thought. Well - let's try it on for size - I can always change it.

I suspect that I will probably go one day out of seven with the - in front of the name. The only other option is to change our name. In an alphabetical system the alternatives are somewhat limited it seems. All of a sudden podcasts who's names start with A have an artificial advantage in the listing. I personally don't believe that anyone at random will EVER EVER EVER find us on iTunes. EVER. Thus without doing something an iTunes listing is of absolutely no consequence to this podcast - no matter the content.

Thus are the dilemnas... Would love to hear how others are thinking of climbing the same molehill.

It would be nice to be to have the visibility of the top 100, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon for the majority of us.

I would hope that in the future iTunes will implement the lists where you can choose the order by name or by popularity. That's the best solution.

[podcastone]

Let me know what you guys think. I'm pretty mixed about it, myself. I vascillated off and on about it last night and thought. Well - let's try it on for size - I can always change it.

I think its kind of lame to do it just to boost yourself in the alpha list. I see you changed it back. :D However if someone is so desparate for listeners its a great tactic I guess. Personally I don't care whether I have 5 listeners or 50000. Its great to get emails and feedback, but if you do it for the fun of it it shouldn't matter that much.

If you're shilling a product or trying to increase your ad impressions.. We'll that's a different story. I doubt Apple will do anything about it since its the same in the music directory e.g.[[Cool Band Name]].

Maybe if everybody starts doing it Apple would have to outlaw non-alpha characters or change the sort from #AZ to AZ#, but then people would just rename their show AAA Plumbing Podcast. LOL

[thefly]

This tactic has been adopted in nearly every list-driven medium on the 'Net.

Personally, I skip over any listing that starts with an unneccesary non-alphanumeric character.

Take that as you way, but people who are Internet savvy will probably not look favorably upon list-bumping like this. But whatever. It's not about ranking of list position to me.

[ferg]

I'll tell you what...i would LOVE to have iTunes display a subscriber count!

[Hittman]

All totally unscripted, never totally boring monotone, never just 5 mins and the only Podcast network with a guarantee to measurable 'Smartenize' you and never talk down to you with Target bs.

Charles, it tickles me to see such jealousy. Don't worry, poor baby, maybe some day you can grow a brain that includes enough imagination and do your very own podcast.

Jeff, as a general rule of thumb, if you feel uncomfortable about doing something, it’s usually best to avoid it. And I wouldn't worry about iTunes too much right now. It's still klunky, and there are a lot of issues Apple has to sort out before it becomes useful. The biggest service they're doing right now is telling the world that podcasts exist. I suspect that most people who try them out are going to go searching for them elsewhere, like here, and that's where they'll find you.

I'm in there, buried in the Politics section, where no one should be able to find me, but I'm still seeing noticeable traffic from it. You're getting some exposure, no matter how poorly you're listed, and every little bit helps. Wait a month or two for Apple to get the kinks worked out before worrying about it too much.

[jeffoest]

Jeff, as a general rule of thumb, if you feel uncomfortable about doing something, it’s usually best to avoid it. And I wouldn't worry about iTunes too much right now. It's still klunky, and there are a lot of issues Apple has to sort out before it becomes useful. The biggest service they're doing right now is telling the world that podcasts exist. I suspect that most people who try them out are going to go searching for them elsewhere, like here, and that's where they'll find you.

I'm in there, buried in the Politics section, where no one should be able to find me, but I'm still seeing noticeable traffic from it. You're getting some exposure, no matter how poorly you're listed, and every little bit helps. Wait a month or two for Apple to get the kinks worked out before worrying about it too much.

Sounds like good words of advice! Thanks.

[obtuseangle]

I don't think it's a big deal, but I wouldn't do it, Jeff -- just on principle.

Instead I'd just stick with what got you this far -- clever cross-promotional ideas (i.e. your Hey Jude "feud" with Ferg) -- and, of course, cranking out entertaining shows.

Steve
The Obtuse Angle

[dcolanduno]

A podcaster who is in this directory recently changed their feed to reflect higher in RSS readers like Bloglines and Apple itunes. I refreshed my feeds and low and behold they were at the top.

I think this trick is just shameless promotion of a podcast and somthing like this just cheapens the community.

This and that with jeff and pat now reads -this and that..... So we all know putting a dash in front of our podcasts will now get us at the top of feeds since most are alphabetical.

What do you think? I am totaly off base or did this podcast do somthing lame?

Might be talking about me...

Our show's marketing material, my sig, and everything else that has been a graphic has had the little dash in front of our show name.

When I went through and cleaned up all of our feed information and started re-naming our shows for the iTunes list so they weren't just '#10 - skepticality' so people on iTunes would know what they were.

In all the cleaning up, I put our re-formatted information in as the way I do it in all our feeds and sigs and graphics: - skepticality

I didn't think twice when I did it. Until Swoopy mentioned that it was 'sneaky'. Funny, I didn't think twice about it... I almost switched it back, but then... I figured why not leave it that way. All my graphics and such have always had the '-' in front. And, yes, I end up at the beginning of the list, just the same as if I had tactically named my podcast something that would always be at the top like... Aaron's Best Podcast, or something of the sort.

I've never agreed with Alphabetical listings, they are always unfair. Should be random each time you go to a listing when just browsing. Give people the 'option' to click to alphabetize... but first browse should always be random. Especially for reasons like this.

[Keeme]

I used a K in mine for strategic reasons... See if nobody listens to me then when I don't feel like "pod/webcasting" I can just take whats in my recycle bin name it and VOILÀ! no one will ever know


MUAHAHAHAHA

That and my Name starts with the **** thing.


*Sigh*

OK go back to reading the not so cRaZy guys posts.

[Hittman]

A likely story. Quit trying to cover up, Derek, we know you're evil, and did it with bad intent. Just look at the way you're torturing that poor dog. He's obivously in great pain. And stop talking with your mouth full. And quit tracking dirt across my nice clean floor…

[dcolanduno]

A likely story. Quit trying to cover up, Derek, we know you're evil, and did it with bad intent. Just look at the way you're torturing that poor dog. He's obivously in great pain. And stop talking with your mouth full. And quit tracking dirt across my nice clean floor…

**** you! Don't unveil my evil plans of tracking mud on the floor!

D.

[shepdave]

Hi Jeff,
I've been out of the country, so I only upgraded by iTunes last night.

I must say I did notice the little dash trick in the listings, and it sort of rubbed the wrong way. It felt a little bit like the Yellow Pages ruse of starting your name off with four A's or something.

As one of your biggest fans, I think I'd agree that the best thing you could do (the best thing we all could do) is simply to build our audiences through the dialogue process and continue to produce wonderful content.

And, of course, mention The Word Nerds in every second or third show...

Dave

[shepdave]

PS: I need to think of something to get me up the list. I sort of picked the wrong name for my podcast. If you drop the "The" from "The Word Nerds" it moves me down toward the bottom. :?

Dave

[Craig]

Personally, I skip over any listing that starts with an unneccesary non-alphanumeric character.
Ditto.

Craig

[robaustin]

I'll list the four that are doing it that are in iTunes for me:

- Area 51
- Podcast 411
- The Rock and Roll Geek Show
- Yeast Radio.

It's very annoying to have them at the top and out of their proper Alpha order. Folks - take the dash out. Please.

--*Rob

[kneelw]

Personally, Jeff, I think the rhyming title of your show is a big draw. In ad terms that's your USP (Unique Selling Proposition or something. Yes, I've been drinking!) But I think it's too soon to tell how consumers are going to choose a podcast to listen to. There are so many other issues with iTunes and podcasts that I think dash thing is going to be overlooked.

I do agree that rankings or some other device should show up in the store. Maybe Apple should look into using the Feedburner API to bring in some stats. I'd also like to see more promotion of "indie" podcasts (I hate that term!) on the front page. Right now, every time I open iTunes up, it's like 57 channels and nothin' on, at least nothing I'd subject my ears to.

[jeffoest]

Interesting stuff all. For us, I think using the 'dash' will be a temporary thing used every now and then to get new people to take a look - what I don't like is the way our name looks with a stupid dash in it and both Pat and I are pretty sensitive to what other podcasters think of the practice. We don't do our podcast for money or 'fame' as most people that listen know - in fact - one of the big 'wins' for us is the fun that we are having meeting and developing relationships with individuals in the podcasting 'community'.

It's useful to hear the feedback from others. I wonder what the other podcasters who use the 'trick' think.

[Hittman]

PS: I need to think of something to get me up the list. I sort of picked the wrong name for my podcast. If you drop the "The" from "The Word Nerds" it moves me down toward the bottom.

You could change it to "A Word Nerd."

Or, better yet, and more accurate, "2 Word Nerds."

[thefly]

VIVA La ALPHANUMERICS!!

[podcastshuffle]

Or, better yet, and more accurate, "2 Word Nerds."

Or better yet. Podcast in Spanish and call it:

¡La Palabra Nerds!

I'm pretty sure the ! mark is #1 in the sort order so I'd guess that the ¡ mark would be too. :0

Jeff

[Big Mike]

A likely story. Quit trying to cover up, Derek, we know you're evil, and did it with bad intent. Just look at the way you're torturing that poor dog. He's obivously in great pain. And stop talking with your mouth full. And quit tracking dirt across my nice clean floor…

You Tirebiter boys need to fight this out amongst yourselves!

[area51marc]

I'll list the four that are doing it that are in iTunes for me:

- Area 51
- Podcast 411
- The Rock and Roll Geek Show
- Yeast Radio.

It's very annoying to have them at the top and out of their proper Alpha order. Folks - take the dash out. Please.

--*Rob

Just as a correction, Area 51 is NOT doing that hyphen thing. We kinda understand the idea but we're not utilizing this form of "marketing".

[charleyw]

Okay, so I would expect it from, like, Yeast Radio (being in Adam's stable isn't enough?)....but not some of my favorites! Illinoise? Jeff and Pat? Podcast 411? Why? Isn't the fact that I mention you guys on our show as some of my favorites enough?!
You broke my heart, Fredo.


Charley

[charleyw]

Oh...by the way....you didn't really break my heart. I'm going to continue to listen to you guys anyway.

[Hittman]

A likely story. Quit trying to cover up, Derek, we know you're evil, and did it with bad intent. Just look at the way you're torturing that poor dog. He's obivously in great pain. And stop talking with your mouth full. And quit tracking dirt across my nice clean floor…

You Tirebiter boys need to fight this out amongst yourselves!

I almost put "with apologies to" in the original post, but then thought it would be more fun to see if anyone else picked up on the reference. And you did it without revealing the source, giving other people a chance to take a crack at it. Very nice. You get ten points for that, which are redeemable for the refreshing beverage of your choice should we ever meet face to face.

Out of the fog, into the smog. . .

[Patrick]

I'll just say this. I'm pretty disappointed at some of the people who are doing this. It's like you saying to me "My podcast deserves to be higher up on this list than yours."

To me, it's no different than you adding fraudulent votes to your own podcast here at Podcast Alley to get on the front page.

If all you care about is being listed higher up to get more listeners, while snubbing other podcasters in the process, then I guess it says a lot about what's important to you.

[dcolanduno]

I'll just say this. I'm pretty disappointed at some of the people who are doing this. It's like you saying to me "My podcast deserves to be higher up on this list than yours."

To me, it's no different than you adding fraudulent votes to your own podcast here at Podcast Alley to get on the front page.

If all you care about is being listed higher up to get more listeners, while snubbing other podcasters in the process, then I guess it says a lot about what's important to you.

Totally different.

Welcome to what happens when you have so few categories and they are just big alphabetical lists. So it is a snub to me that your show starts with an 'N' and mine starts with an 'S'...

Terribly shitty arguement... Yes, that's what the folks at Illiniose! were thinkin'... "I think I am better than everyone!" No, I think they said... "CRAP no one can find our show... but they certainly can find anyone that named their show Aaron's Big House." So, they tried to let people FIND them.

People, step back and take a look. There is no GOOD way to position yourself in iTunes, people can't find you unless they just go down the list one podcast at a time, and if you are in that dreaded 'audio blogs' section. Forget it.

*I* did it by accident when I cleaned up our whole feed, basically just switched our friggin feed name to match the graphics and name as I type it in my sig, and our little online banners and such. Wasn't until I showed up in the list 3 days later that Swoopy told me I cheated.

But, its a **** good idea from a marketing perspective at this rate.

If iTunes starts, maybe, randomly listing the shows when you first go to a category. Then, it would be fair. But as it stands, what is the difference between anyone putting a dash there, and all those new podcasts showing up that have names specifically with an 'A' in front to get to the top?

I love how spiteful people get over folks just trying to promote themselves a little bit.

But, it is just peachy that there are some hand-picked by, seemingly one person, shows up on the front page of iTunes... And some people are the worst thing ever because they tried to take that matter into their own hands...

I'd rather iTunes have better ways to find shows... and have the listings randomize... and maybe even, for shame, have a random picks list of boxes show up on the front.

Why is it that people have to go insane over when ANYONE tries to market themselves.

[jeffoest]

My two cents - I don't know if a 'random' list would be much better. I sort of think of an alphabetical list as random as well. IF (big if) Apple wants to become a great podcast directory, they will probably eventually sort podcasts in a category by number of iTunes subscribers (with or without actually showing that number). They already do this now on the Top 100 page (though I think just maybe there is a bit of intervention there - dunno) and if you do a search on keywords, the four "top podcasts" are in order of subscribers.

As a listener, if I go to a genre and am looking for some comedy podcasts to listen to, for example, my natural instict is to start with the podcasts that others like vs. some random list.

I suspect (though could be wrong) this alphabet / hyphen thing will be something short-lived and temporary.

Pat and I will probably take out the hypen after a bit, run some more comparitive stats (i'm the ever willing scientist! lol) and assess the situation more as it develops...

[Patrick]

You're wrong Derek. Changing the name of your show to get to the top of an alphabetical list is cheating the list.

None of us named our show with the thoughts of listing alphabetically, except maybe those that have started since iTunes did this. You can say it's "marketing" but it isn't.

Yes - by doing the dash trick you are publicly stating that you think your show deserves to be listed above everyone else. I'm not spiteful, I'm just telling you like it is. I don't care what any of you do. I just think it's indicative of what some of you think about everyone else trying to maintain the directory the way it was intended, whether it's a good system or not.

Saying it should be random is fine, but you cheating everyone else by pushing them further down the list is still not a solution, and like I said, pretty much a slap in the face to all your fellow podcasters. But if that's what's important to you, go for it.

[dcolanduno]

Saying it should be random is fine, but you cheating everyone else by pushing them further down the list is still not a solution, and like I said, pretty much a slap in the face to all your fellow podcasters. But if that's what's important to you, go for it.

Yep, that is what I was doing... trying to 'slap other people in the face' by naming my feed a certain way.

Don't make statements like that and assume them to be true, or try to convince other that they are... Pure evil at its best...

"Everyone hate these people because they hate you!"

If iTunes can give us a way to promote OURSELVES other than the alphabetical list, I'm all for having a discussion about better options.

Until then, give folks one...

Remind yourself that 99.99% of the iTunes people, never come to the chat forums on the alley, and maybe only 20% of them will ever look for podcasts outside the box of iTunes.

So... we just all are one big alphabetical list...

Or, you better be hand-chosen by some unknown force to get on the front page, usually means you have to be Disney, ESPN, or an already popular Rock n' Roll Radio station. OR you have to somehow get into the top 100, but since you have no way to communicate, or promote yourself, or do anything interactive on iTunes... then... you just hope for the best.

Since it is pretty obvious that the tide changed and MOST listeners now are going to be coming in from places like iTunes... hoping for the best isn't marketing yourself at all.

It is one thing to just say; "I don't really care if I get a lot of listeners from iTunes"

It is another thing to keep making posts to try to get people to HATE fellow podcasters in some weird way.

I'm not the one pointing fingers and trying to get people to hate each other here man...

[jeffoest]

I can see Patrick's argument and do think there is validity in what he's saying. Obviously podcasters who have done this haven't thought 'gee, i think i'm better than others so I deserve to be at the top of the line' - it's more like 'well here's a tool that everyone as access to - lets see what it does'.

Nevertheless, Patrick's perception is valid in that I'm sure there are others that share the same perception. And it's an important one.

One thing I will add, before iTunes, there were several lesser directories out there that had alphabetic lists. I never used these. I never found them useful. I suspect that more people have that reaction than actually try to find podcasts using a list like that. I think it's probably more important for all podcasters to get their search keywords in order so that as more people plug in search terms, people who would be more apt to like your content, would be able to find you easily. Apple DOES provide nice tools for this with the relevancy sort (though don't know the algorithm used) and the 4 top podcasts as mentioned before.

I truly believe that that is the way most people will end up finding podcasts that they might find interesting as they get more sophisticated.

For those that disdain our podcast for the hyphen. I can tell you that we are listening and are sensitive to our podcasting friends and maintain an open mind as we go forward with this craziness they call iTunes!

[Patrick]

No doubt I'm pointing fingers. I don't care if you're Illinoise (which doesn't push me down the list) or Skepticality which does push me down the list, it's ****ing wrong.

I'm not trying to make you out to be some kind of *****le, but if you're trying to tell me you didn't do to be listed higher than other podcasters (which is all I'm accusing you of), then I think you're lying. (Skepticality aside since you say it's how you write your name all time time, with the "-")

Regardless, there's only one reason to do it - you think you should be listed higher. Bottom line. And I think that's ****ed up.

[dcolanduno]

Regardless, there's only one reason to do it - you think you should be listed higher. Bottom line. And I think that's ****ed up.

Here's what I'm trying to say.. you are making it into something that people are doing because they think they 'deserve' to be higher than other people.

That isn't even close to the truth... I'd have to say in all cases...

They are doing it because they WANT to be seen in a big sea of endless shows. It has nothing to do with anyone else. It has to do with trying to get people to hear their show.

Might it 'seem' rude to other folks. Maybe. But, in the world of T.V., Radio, Music and Movies... is it rude to all the other movies when a Movie buys a lot of commercial time? Or, if they get on McDonalds happy meals?

Right now, it is one of the only 'two' forms of attempting to promote yourself on iTunes. I can see why a lot of people do it.

iTunes does NOT supply enough categories, that is one problem. The other problem is that there is no 'randomized' manner, or communications/promotion location in which people can get exposure to other content, and you can announce yourself.

Worst part is... I feel a bit responsible all because of my night of cleaning my feed to get on iTunes! And... Patrick YOU are the one that built that **** tool that made me get obsessive about it!

Yes, we have always had the Dash in front on all our marketing stuff. I didn't have it on my feed before... because I didn't put the dash in front when I made my libsyn account. It sort of defaulted to just 'Skepticality', likely due to my account name... and since at first... I was an RSS newb, I just let it all get handled automatically.

I think Illinoise... what they did, perfectly acceptable. They CONSTANTLY talk about their little exclamation point in their show. It mind as well be the show name... or symbol. '!' is what I think of when I think of Illinoise.

Now... get this... last time I looked, my RSS NAME changed but none of my show cleanup got updated, so my episodes are all still lame and people have no clue what they are... "Show #10" doesn't help the average iTunes user.

[dcolanduno]

One thing I will add, before iTunes, there were several lesser directories out there that had alphabetic lists. I never used these. I never found them useful. I suspect that more people have that reaction than actually try to find podcasts using a list like that. I think it's probably more important for all podcasters to get their search keywords in order so that as more people plug in search terms, people who would be more apt to like your content, would be able to find you easily. Apple DOES provide nice tools for this with the relevancy sort (though don't know the algorithm used) and the 4 top podcasts as mentioned before.

Well, I think over time, people might use the search more often. But, I've watched newbie podcast listeners where I work on iTunes now for over a week. I got so many people turned onto podcasts there, it is insane. I Was TRYING to get people to pay attention before. Now I get asked if I've SEEN podcasting before by people I talk to out in public. Pretty cool in a way.

Anyway, the folks I watch work iTunes... they go to a category... start at the top and listen to the promo shows, just a little bit of them, and either subscribe or move onto the next one.

Usually around show #10 on the list... they feel like they have enough in their list to listen to for now.

There is a MAJOR difference between the iTunes music store and the podcasting section. People hear music from TONS of sources. They come to iTunes music store to find what they heard somewhere else, and look it up. THEN they might go on some exploration based on the 'other people that like this... like THIS' stuff at the top of the pages. But, people usually FIRST know what they are looking for.

The Podcast part of iTunes, is setup the same way. But, IF you don't know what you are looking for... you have to mindlessly look through the long lists... :|

Hard to search for most people, since they don't even know what they are looking for in podcasts right now. I'd agree more strongly about the 'dash' being some big issue, if we all had some way to get airplay, or people came to see us podcast in local bars, like the songs and bands do on iTunes...

The other issue is... there is no way to control what category people put themselves into. I've started to see podcasts just list themselves in EVERY category. Hell, in Science we have every WEATHER report podcast that each TV station puts out. That isn't SCIENCE that is news. Plain and simple, even IF you try to sneak some crap in about how a hurricane works. It is news.

There are tons of examples of this though. I guess that is another form of 'marketing'... but THAT is more 'cheating' that the dash in the name. Since in many cases, people are mis-categoirizing themselves with a thin excuse for it, or none at all sometimes.

[Patrick]

You say it isn't about being higher up than other shows, but about being seen in a sea of shows. That's the same thing. You want to stand out, and think you deserve to standout. The motives are entirely selfish. You can dance around it and make up excuses all you want, but the motives are entirely selfish. You can't convince anyone they aren't because it's blatant.

Illinoise has never been written "! Illinoise!". You know it. I know it. It's done to get to the top of the directory. Don't say it isn't. Who are you kidding?

It's not the same as advertising. If you could pay to be listen in bold or to move to the top of the directory, that would be fine. If it was my directory, I'd boot you out for putting a dash before your show, or at the least move you back to where you belong.

I'm not saying alphabetical is the answer. I'm not saying random is the answer. I'm saying this isn't the answer, and like it or not, you're slighting other podcasters. You say I'm making a big deal by complaining about it? What about the people doing the dash trick? "I don't like the alphabetical system, so I'm cheating," Seems just as childish to me.

If everyone did the dash trick, the few honest podcasters following the rules (simply by not cheating) would be at the bottom. Is that fair? No.

It's just wrong on a lot of levels, but mostly because you're hurting other podcasters. The very reason those people are doing it is because they feel they are too far down the list. In the process of "fixing" that problem, they pushed others further down the list, doing to them exactly what they didn't like.

But I'm starting to see you guys don't care, so that's cool. Keep justifying it. I'm sure everyone won't mind.

[Hittman]

You're wrong Derek. Changing the name of your show to get to the top of an alphabetical list is cheating the list.

None of us named our show with the thoughts of listing alphabetically, except maybe those that have started since iTunes did this. You can say it's "marketing" but it isn't.

You're wrong, Patrick. Why isn't it marketing? Be specific.

Is AAA Towing in the yellow pages cheating? How about Aaron Aardvark Towing? What if his name really is Aaron Aardvark?

I knew a printer who named his business Accent on Art Printing, as a way of being near the top of the list without being obvious. Was that cheating? Why?

[jeffoest]

Anyway, the folks I watch work iTunes... they go to a category... start at the top and listen to the promo shows, just a little bit of them, and either subscribe or move onto the next one.

Usually around show #10 on the list... they feel like they have enough in their list to listen to for now.

Wow - very interesting observation Derek (hmm.. you like science, huh? lol). Thanks for sharing!

I'll bet Apple has lots of interesting data from usability studies on how potential new listeners use these tools. It sure would be interesting to get our hands on those, eh?

[Patrick]

Like I said, I know the reason they're doing it, and you know the reason they're doing it.

You can keep trying to justify it. You aren't fooling anyone.

I've made my opinion known. I wager most podcasters following the rules feel the same way, whether or not they say it.

[dcolanduno]

Anyway, the folks I watch work iTunes... they go to a category... start at the top and listen to the promo shows, just a little bit of them, and either subscribe or move onto the next one.

Usually around show #10 on the list... they feel like they have enough in their list to listen to for now.

Wow - very interesting observation Derek (hmm.. you like science, huh? lol). Thanks for sharing!

I'll bet Apple has lots of interesting data from usability studies on how potential new listeners use these tools. It sure would be interesting to get our hands on those, eh?

I do too...

And I AGREE Patrick, if there was a way to PAY to market yourself. It would change things for a lot of people. But there isn't... the only marketing tool you have is an alphabetical list. So what you are saying is... people suck if they use it?

Why does it matter to you, if you don't care where you are in the list?

That is my question. If you don't care, then that is fine. But why try to make other people HATE folks that are just trying to stand out in the only way they have on the BIG iTunes list?

Maybe, if we ALL did it, Apple would have to figure out a better way. :)

They certainly won't do anything if we just all play the game as it is laid out before us right now. They love the fact that they can stick up all the corporate content they want in the limelight, and let all the rest of us just sit down and get in the big line.

Now I have to go find a real person with the name 'Aaron' to be on my podcast so I can make it 'Aaron and Skepticality'... or wait... would that be cheating?

If I re-name my podcast 'A Absolutely Skeptical Podcast'

Would that be cheating? Anymore than someone that already 'happens' to have two 'A's followed by a 'B' in their current name?

Right now, from what I have WITNESSED, unless your podcast name starts with an A-D, MOST new iTunes folks... never going to see you, or find you.

How is THAT fair?

[Hittman]

I just visited iTunes, and it looks like every category is starting to fill up with "dashcasts."

If everybody does it, the effect will be nill, and then we'll have to find something else to complain about.

[dcolanduno]

<bah, duplicated>

[dcolanduno]

I just visited iTunes, and it looks like every category is starting to fill up with "dashcasts."

If everybody does it, the effect will be nill, and then we'll have to find something else to complain about.

Pretty much...

I originally was going to rant more here... but...

What I am trying to say is simple...

When people try to promote themselves with the tools given to them. They ARE NOT doing anything against other podcaster, not even a LITTLE bit.

All the folks I see with the dash in their name, or other types of symbols, are all people that I KNOW love the community here, and other podcasters...

Taking it away, does NOTHING for their show, or yours...

Hell, Podcast 411, yea... Rob is trying to smack other podcasters. I don't think so.

I think he should keep it there, because people on iTunes that DONT come to places like the Alley, NEED to hear his show. And when he removes it... most newbies... will never hit the 'P' range in the category he is in.

I don't think it is helpful to piss all over people in the community that try to promote themselves... there are plenty of big money *****les doing that for us.

I'm sure they'd all love us to start fighting internally about really lame stuff like this as well.

[Hittman]

I'm sure they'd all love us to start fighting internally about really lame stuff like this as well.

Good point. Get the little people to squabble with each other, so the big people will be left alone to carve up the pie.

This is why I don't like hearing podcasters slam each other. I'm not talking legit review podcasts – they'd be useless if they only reviewed podcasts they liked – but general podcasts that make it a point to rip a new one for podcasts they don't like. There are, and always will be, far more lousy podcasts out there than good ones. And who knows, the really lousy ones might, in time, turn into something worth listening too. In the meantime, if you want to alert your listeners to other podcasts, tell them about good ones out there. They'll have no trouble finding lousy ones on their own.

[Craig]

When people try to promote themselves with the tools given to them. They ARE NOT doing anything against other podcaster, not even a LITTLE bit.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with using the tools available to promote yourself, but in this case you're definitely doing so at the cost of other podcasters. If you put yourself at the top of the list you are pushing everyone else down the list, and as others have pointed out that definitely ends up hurting those that are further down. It's for that reason I decided against changing my feeds to start with :TGN:, although I was definitely tempted.

I'd compare this whole thing to driving down the shoulder on the freeway to bypass a traffic jam or cutting in line at the movie theater. Actually, the latter is probably a better example because if the movie is sold out you've just caused someone else to miss out on getting in.

Craig

[Patrick]

Derek, you're wrong. You are hurting other podcasters. The whole reason you're doing the dash thing is to move up the list because being further down sucks. In the process you're pushing others further down. Like it or not, you're hurting other podcasters.

You're arguments are stupid. Yes, I said stupid.

All you can do is go on and on about how alphabetical isn't fair. What you're doing isn't fair either. "What if" "What if" Stop playing games. You can't get around what you're doing.

You're doing the equivalent of telling a cop "Everyone else was speeding". That doesn't make you doing it right.

It makes me sick how you try to justify this.

[Keeme]

You broke my heart, Fredo.

I LOVE THAT LINE!!! [Keeme is on the floor laughing] I used to say that to my little brother all the time.

"FREDO"!

Patrick, aren't you the guy who slams other podcasts on your show that you don't like....doesn't that hurt other podcasters?

[Patrick]

We have a segment called bad podcast of the week.

That's not the same as disrespecting other podcasters.

Nothing I do takes listeners away from a podcast. We get them a surge of listeners, actually.

Keep trying.

Bad podcast of the week is not disrespecting another podcaster....yeah whatever. I find that comment laughable and how is changing your show name disrespecting another podcast? Please have you even thought about what you're saying??

[Patrick]

Attack the merits of my show in another thread.

Adding a dash disrespects other podcasts by pushing them down the list, the very thing you don't like and makes you add the dash. If you can't see that you're a moron. READ.

Then add a dash in front of your show name and quit crying about it. There, done with that problem.

[dcolanduno]

When people try to promote themselves with the tools given to them. They ARE NOT doing anything against other podcaster, not even a LITTLE bit.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with using the tools available to promote yourself, but in this case you're definitely doing so at the cost of other podcasters. If you put yourself at the top of the list you are pushing everyone else down the list, and as others have pointed out that definitely ends up hurting those that are further down. It's for that reason I decided against changing my feeds to start with :TGN:, although I was definitely tempted.

I'd compare this whole thing to driving down the shoulder on the freeway to bypass a traffic jam or cutting in line at the movie theater. Actually, the latter is probably a better example because if the movie is sold out you've just caused someone else to miss out on getting in.

Craig

So,

Then unless we all name our podcast the same... it isn't fair?

Or do you think it is 'dumb luck' that a lot of podcasts start with the letter 'A'. And if it is dumb luck... then, that should be the way we all are given a chance to promote ourselves?

Sorry, but doesn't fly...

Since pushing people 'down' on the list is so crappy, should all new podcasts have to come up with a name that is definately BELOW all the other current podcasts? If not, then just the nature of new podcasts being formed will drive people down the list.

Guess those a-holes are sinners too...

F-them for wanting to podcast, they pushed me down the list because their show started with a letter before 'S' in the alphabet!

Come on, use some logic to this...

[Patrick]

You're so ignorant you can't grasp the issue. I wouldn't add a dash because I wouldn't do that to another podcaster. I've got plenty of listeners and the number keeps climbing. I don't need to cheat the system and **** over other podcasters in the meantime.

[Patrick]

Derek, you're still doing it.

All you can do is keep saying what others are doing and how it isn't fair some begin with A and you begin with S. Stop worrying about what if's and how the alphabet system is flawed. It's the way it is right now.

That doesn't make what you're doing right. It never will. No matter how many times you say it.

If you've got plenty of listeners, then don't worry about it. Have a beer, take a chill pill and quit crying about it. There's no rules against it and if they do it, so what? If someone wants your show, they'll find it. Right now, your accusations go against some people who have done nothing but help podcasting like Rob from Podcast 411. Do you honestly think he's doing that thinking he's going to screw you over?? Please man, quit the name calling and think rationally about things. You're acting like a big sponsorship with Sears is at stake, relax.

[dcolanduno]

Derek, you're wrong. You are hurting other podcasters. The whole reason you're doing the dash thing is to move up the list because being further down sucks. In the process you're pushing others further down. Like it or not, you're hurting other podcasters.

Haha, what a joke... Let's all name our shows the same name and then its all cool...

Asking for more votes is THE SAME thing then. Because, if you get on the top 10, then you push someone else down. Guess then, asking for votes is asking to HURT other podcasters.

The whole concept of trying to promote yourself is hurting someone else, is just weak.

You're arguments are stupid. Yes, I said stupid.

Hahaha... well.. yea, if your IQ is below 40... and you can't handle logic... yea, you would say that.

ANYONE that doesn't understand simple logic... also is stupid. Get a clue... love how you had to pull that one out. Real winning arguement, just call people stupid.

Dude, that makes me want to add in some more dashes just to piss you off some more. Way to go.

All you can do is go on and on about how alphabetical isn't fair. What you're doing isn't fair either. "What if" "What if" Stop playing games. You can't get around what you're doing.

How is it not 'fair'?

You're doing the equivalent of telling a cop "Everyone else was speeding". That doesn't make you doing it right.

No, actually. Because no where does it state that putting a dash in your name is illegal in the iTunes spec, or on the Apple 'Rules'. So, TERRIBLE arguement. So, this might be the equivilent of saying that I am doing something that YOU think should be illegal... like being able to put up an advertising banner at a ballgame, so you want to crap all over anyone that does it.

It makes me sick how you try to justify this.

Yea, it is such a sin... makes you 'sick'... get over that. You have made it perfectly clear you'd rather hate podcasters that try to get listeners in a VERY passive manner...

Love you too man... just keep in mind, I'm not the one attacking everyone and trying to make OTHERS think that certain folks 'hate' other people.

Trying to convince people to hate each other... is a pretty low tactic.

[Patrick]

Like I said, you're too ignorant to see the big picture. You don't get the argument, the point, or my source of contention.

Don't worry about me. I'll make my points and arguments with the big boys. Let the adults talk unless you can make an intelligent point about the issue. "Chill and go have a beer" doesn't qualify.

[dcolanduno]

Derek, you're still doing it.

All you can do is keep saying what others are doing and how it isn't fair some begin with A and you begin with S. Stop worrying about what if's and how the alphabet system is flawed. It's the way it is right now.

That doesn't make what you're doing right. It never will. No matter how many times you say it.

Still doing what? Making more sense then you?

What I am doing is completely right... especially since it was how I portrayed my name in marketing long before iTunes...

I am just pointed out that you started this out NOT as a discussion, you started this by trying to put ideas in other peoples head that certain folks were doing things because they hate and disrespect other podcasters.

And just because YOU want to get upset that they will take some initiative to promote themselves is somehow annoying. It is NOT true that it disrespects other podcasters in any way. Not even the smallest amount.

No matter what someone trys to say, that is a personal concept you can keep, but you can't act as if it is true in even the smallest way.

It is sad that we have now come to a point that anything anyone else does to get attention in podcasting is met with some hostility from the rest of community.

Look, you can choose not to do anything to your feed. But trying to get people to hate each other. THAT is wrong... putting a dash in front of your podcast name in an RSS feed... who gives a rats ***.

Well actually I get the point and your source of contention, I just don't care and it's fun to get you all worked up. :D

[Patrick]

I never said anyone was doing this because they hate other podcasters. Don't put words in my mouth.

I never said anyone was doing this to disrespect other podcasters. I did say that doing it DOES happen to disrespect other podcasters.

Everyone who is doing it is doing is because they think they're podcast should be listed more prominently than everyone elses. Period.

That's selfish, disrespectful, and has an adverse affect on everyone else listed.

There's nothing else to say. Those are facts.

[dcolanduno]

Like I said, you're too ignorant to see the big picture. You don't get the argument, the point, or my source of contention.

Don't worry about me. I'll make my points and arguments with the big boys. Let the adults talk unless you can make an intelligent point about the issue. "Chill and go have a beer" doesn't qualify.

The 'big boys' Hahaha, go pound sand. You started this by making a blakent statement that a ton of well respected podcasters were acting out of SPITE against all the other people. I KNOW they weren't.

But your tactic of trying to stir up people to hate each other, is 'far' from adult.

My arguements are LOGICAL comments about the situation we are handed to us. Craig even made LOGICAL arguements on the other side. You, however, have don't nothing but called people stupid... said things make you 'sick'... etc, etc...

Rather than accept that it is TRUE that there is a problem with the current situation at hand on the iTunes directory.

Now, there are two perfectly REASONABLE sides to this. Those that will work the system to their advantage, because it is all that is given to them.

OR

Those that don't because somehow, they believe it makes them more 'respectable'.

It doesn't effect what really matters, which is the quality of your content and the show itself. It has NO relfection on how people think about each other individulally. It is just a choice.

Like, several people that said they weren't going to post thier show in iTunes because they have a 'moral' problem with how Apple has setup their system.

You are in iTunes, endorsing the 'man' you make me 'sick'...

That type of stuff is childish. Promotion is a self-contained action.

You just defended your DIRECT attacks on other podcasters in your show. But yet make it like people that change their name are doing something directly AGAINST other folks.

If that is the case... ALL marketing is against other shows. Because, people all have a limited amount of time to listen to podcasts a day... and if they add one more, they will have to remove another show from their listening lineup.

All I'm saying is try not to convince people to hate each other...

[dcolanduno]

Everyone who is doing it is doing is because they think they're podcast should be listed more prominently than everyone elses. Period.

That's selfish, disrespectful, and has an adverse affect on everyone else listed.

There's nothing else to say. Those are facts.

Try again, thanks for playing.

No, they are doing it because they WANT people to hear thier show. Imagine that, you podcast and want people to listen.

Hey I just saw a car commercial... selfish *****les... they want someone to buy the car they built more than another one.

It is no different than asking for votes... isn't that believing that you should be listed higher than others?

Isn't ALL advertising just that... a belief that people should buy your product, listen to your show, etc, etc, etc...

Those aren't even close to the facts... not even in the same universe as the facts. They are, obviously, your opinion though.

Sounds like you don't like ANY advertising. Which is reasonable. We are a little over-sold to these days.

And the front page of Apple pulls it up in spades... It is the same guys that already have all the attention.

But you choose to lash out at fellow small-time indy folks that want to get noticed in a big sea of bullshit that is in the current iTunes list. PAGES AND PAGES of broacast media stuff.

I guess it is true... a few of the small players that want to get noticed in that list. They just make you sick don't they?

[Patrick]

Everyone who is doing it is doing is because they think they're podcast should be listed more prominently than everyone elses. Period.

That's selfish, disrespectful, and has an adverse affect on everyone else listed.

[dcolanduno]

Everyone who is doing it is doing is because they think they're podcast should be listed more prominently than everyone elses. Period.

That's selfish, disrespectful, and has an adverse affect on everyone else listed.

You keep saying that, but I've already proven that to be completely untrue. Try something new.

[Patrick]

People aren't doing it because they think they're podcast should be listed higher? What then? They just like dashes?

[dcolanduno]

People aren't doing it because they think they're podcast should be listed higher? What then? They just like dashes?

They are doing it because they WANT thier podcast to be listed in a way people can see it and find it.

THAT is the point.

It isn't changing other folks shows.

And, the only people it would matter to, are peoples whos shows start with an 'A'... and then isn't that the same source of anger? They deserve to be on top because they somehow 'legitimately' start with an 'A'?

So, raise you hand if you want to be listed LOWER... :)

You obviously care about being listed higher too... or this wouldn't get under your skin.

I'd love it if Apple had a better system to show off the folks that have been producing podcasts for a while, like the folks around here. As I said before, if all the Indy folks put a dash in their name, we all come before the sea of big broadcast stuff that has filled up the lists. A ton of shows that are nothing more than re-packaged radio morning shows and news broadcasts. People will SEARCH for them, like a song they know on iTunes...

Indy podcasters, your only tools are a listing in an Alphabetical list, and the keywords in your iTunes description. Would it be equally crappy for someone to seed their keywords and description for good searching?

Not really much different.... if I seen in a ton more words that someone else, doesn't that put me above them in a search? I've seen this coming up a lot on iTunes as well.

I'm not sure what the good answer is, I certainly know what I would do. I'd make all browsing come up random on iTunes, unless I clicked the 'name' header to sort them up or down alphabetically. But once you browse to a new place, randomize again. Easy, simple, fair.

Otherwise, all we have is... what we have, and if Apple states that it somehow doesn't want, or finds to be 'against' their desires to have feeds start with symbols or numbers... then it is not 'cheating', or cutting in line, or anything of the sort.

[Patrick]

They care about their podcasts being heard? What gives your or anyone else the right to raise their show above anyone elses? I don't care where I am, as long as I am in my fair and allotted location, but you guys are skipping to the head of the line and it's bullshit.

We all want our podcasts to be heard. But if we all broke the rules like you guys are doing, where would we be? Back at square one.

They want it to be seen is just another way to say they want theirs to be listed first before everyone else, which, again, is selfish and disrespectful to everyone else who is following the system set forth by Apple.

You're argument keeps coming back to Apple needing a better system and how alphabetical isn't fair. That doesn't change the fact that what you are doing isn't fair. They are two completely different issues.

[dcolanduno]

We all want our podcasts to be heard. But if we all broke the rules like you guys are doing, where would we be? Back at square one.

No we aren't at square one, because... what 'rule' are any of these people breaking?

The answer...

One that you made up in your head. Point to me where it is stated that you can only have a letter as the first character in your podcast name. Until then, you can't keep saying any rules have been broken, or anyone has cheated in any way. Both of those connotations require there to be an actual law or rule that is written be broken.

They want it to be seen is just another way to say they want theirs to be listed first before everyone else, which, again, is selfish and disrespectful to everyone else who is following the system set forth by Apple.

Umm, what system by Apple? Did I miss the part where they said... "No non-alpha characters in your podcast name."

So, WANTING to be listed prominently is dis-respectful to others? Ok, then back to my point. Let's all name our podcast the same, or else we are all dis-respeciting each other in some way.

What ARE, exactly, the rules for creating a podcast name that makes it fair?

Seriously... because then... I'm going to have to say that all those new folks that make a podcast... and it starts with an 'A' is just doing it to piss on others somehow... Cause I can think of a ton of 'legit' sounding names that would pop to the top of the iTunes list just so I was there.

You're argument keeps coming back to Apple needing a better system and how alphabetical isn't fair. That doesn't change the fact that what you are doing isn't fair. They are two completely different issues.

So, because when I re-built my feed, for the first time, so it was on iTunes, and I put the dash in there, like it has been in my sig, graphics, web-page titles, etc, etc, I was doing something unfair. I guess I was just as much as the folks that named their podcasts; "Airferg" or ... "Aaron and Mikes Podcast"... I mean, those bastards with those 'A's in their names...

At what point does this concept end? Seriously? Will this be the same issue when all the podcasts scroll for pages of clever uses of the letter 'A'? If somehow Apple removes the non-alphas from the first character?

[notyourusualbollocks]

I think you're both about to break the record for a thread. ;)

MK

[dcolanduno]

I think you're both about to break the record for a thread. ;)

MK

Thanks for helping...

You have uncovered our secret agenda!!!

Hey, does that album cover say... something about sour cream?

[notyourusualbollocks]

Hey, does that album cover say... something about sour cream?

Yeah it does. For every show I produce, I try and find the weirdest album cover I can find. That's my latest. Four fourty year old women covered in sour cream is about as weird as you can go. ;)

MK

[dcolanduno]

Hey, does that album cover say... something about sour cream?

Yeah it does. For every show I produce, I try and find the weirdest album cover I can find. That's my latest. Four fourty year old women covered in sour cream is about as weird as you can go. ;)

MK

you should have saved that one... might be hard to beat.

:)

[Patrick]

First of all, if you want to excuse yourself from the guilty because you've used the dash in your marketing before iTunes, that's fine. None of this is aimed exclusively at you.

Second, you're still just grasping at straws for an excuse. Airferg isn't Airferg anymore - now it's -Airferg.

You're right. You're not breaking any rules.keep using the symbols to skip to the head of the list. It's perfectly legit. Nothing shady about it at all. All the podcasters below you who didn't modify their names to get bumped to the top won't care at all.

Carry on.

[Hittman]

I'm guessing most of the young pups here have no idea what the sour cream album cover is all about.

In 1965 Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass was very popular. They released an album called "Whipped Cream and Other Delights" with this album cover:

http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/A/Alpert/herbf.jpg

It was considered very racy at the time. A woman only dressed in whipped cream? Shocking, shocking I tell you! (On closer examination it was obvious that she was covered mostly in white cloth. And this cover was examined very closely by a lot of people, especially guy people.) In a later interview she admitted that the only whipped cream was on her head. The rest was shaving cream, and it kept slipping off. And she was three months pregnant at the time.

An album cover that generated that much attention and comment was bound to be parodied. Pat Cooper, a stand up comic (who is still around, and still pretty funny) released an album called "Spaghetti Sauce and Other Delights"

http://www.franklarosa.com/vinyl/BigImg/cooper.jpg

A zillion years later Soul Asylum did their version, "Clam Dip and Other Delights."

http://www.rykodisc.com/rykointernal/databasesupport/album_covers_full/1417.gif

The Frivolous Five is a new one on me. It seems that each parody gets more disgusting.

BTW, the lovely woman on the original now works as an abstract artist. She has her own web site, where she sells her own work, but the most prominently displayed pictures is – you guessed it – that famous album cover. She'll sell you an autographed copy for fifty bucks. There's also a section of other album covers she appeared on. http://www.pronetcomponents.com/subsites/dolores/

This has been your History Lesson From An Old Fart. We now return you to your original thread, already on in progress.

[charleyw]

I think you guys are really short-changing the listener here. Is everyone that looks at iTunes a complete idiot? Or are the complete idiots the ones we want to attract? I mean, if you went to a new user's podcast list, would you find only podcasts that begin with the letter "A"? Or maybe if they're really adventurous, they could have a couple B's and perhaps a C? But none, obviously, would have a podcast that began with "L". And you can forget about "T" completely.

When I see an alphabetical list, I scroll. As a matter of fact, personally speaking, I might even skip over the dashes because they're too high up the list. Because it's alphabetical and not popularity, I don't think people necessarily pay attention to who is at the top. We're not talking about plumbers. We're talking about entertainment. People will say, "Let's see what's in the R's". If you've gone and put a dash in front of your name, you've just missed those eyeballs.

Let's give the listener just a little bit of credit.


Charley

[Illinoise]

Terribly shitty arguement... Yes, that's what the folks at Illiniose! were thinkin'... "I think I am better than everyone!" No, I think they said... "CRAP no one can find our show... but they certainly can find anyone that named their show Aaron's Big House." So, they tried to let people FIND them.

Wow, a whole thread where my show is strewn about and I didn't even know it?? Awesome.

Well, here's all I have to say about preceeding alphanumerics. Yeah, we tried it ... for approximately 12 hours. I actually thought adding an exclamation point was terribly clever as we've spent about 6 months trying to brand an exclamation point on the end of our name, but that's beside the point.

For everyone who didn't try it out during the iTunes grand opening ...

... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? We had a huge grand opening in front of millions of international listeners and you didn't try to jump up in front of everyone's eyes?? We spend all this time talking about iTunes tags and images and you didn't think to do the easiest thing to bump your cast up in the directory? No offense, but I don't have a podsquad sugar daddy to get me on the front page and there's no big movement coming to level the playing field ... iTunes was it, remember?

All that said, we dropped the !. (if it's still showing up, it's iTunes' stupid cache) It was messing up all the playlists and, as mentioned earlier, we're just as well off with all the "-" casts sprouting up. But definitely worth checking out.

As for the rest of you, what are you doing to get your beautiful shows above the commercial crap?? Yes, adding a dash is a cheap fix. I love the idea of genre directories (Godcast, AMP) and all the cross-casting going on. Let's get creative and not live with "Audio Blog" billing.

[Patrick]

My apologies to Illinoise! then if you guys have removed it. It was still showing up today.

(The exclamation point at the end of your name I have no problem with, although I think it's only clever, not terribly clever - it was terribly clever when Yahoo! did it.)

[Illinoise]

I concur. However, the exclamation point I was referring to was the one in FRONT ...

... nevermind.

Nevertheless, I don't think apologies are needed. I'm fully in support of anybody who thinks adding a a dash will make them complete in the podcasting ether. I think your issue should be with Apple.

Attempting to regulate a fraction of the podcasting world is a bit ridiculous. Yeast Radio and other amateurs like it don't frequent Podcast Alley and could care less about "best practices". I don't really think this is a community issue, anyway. If this were happening on Podcast Alley, everyone would be complaining to Chris to change the system or regulate more thoroughly. Because it's happening on iTunes and everyone thinks Apple won't listen, they start pointing fingers at the podcasters.

Personally, I'm more interested in Apple spending their time developing a better ChapterTool app. Garageband 3? Let the buzzing begin.

[feelgoodgirl]

WOW! A lot of passion here on the subject.

Well, I somehow got listed on iTunes without submitting myself. Not only did I get put in the dreaded "Audio Blogs" category, I have a "The" at the beginning of my name and so got stuck down in the "Ts." Oh, well that's certain death now, isn't it?

Actually...

Audio Blogs isn't such a bad category to be in, if you buy into the "alphabet supremacy" philosophy. It is, after all, right after Arts & Entertainment.

And I *have* gotten traffic from iTunes. I had no clue I was listed until someone stopped by my page and posted a comment about it. Right now, it's maybe 30-40% of my subscribers (which doesn't account for a lot in the big picture, seeing as I only have subscribers in the low triple digits), and so iTunes has definitely affected my listenership positively.

On the other hand, I wouldn't freak out to the point of panic over how you are listed in iTunes:

-Most people I know have no idea what a podcast is much less will figure out how to use them solely from iTunes...

-I wouldn't rely on *any* podcast directory to promote your 'cast! I try to drive people to my podcast page directly from my website and get more listeners that way, instead of just focusing on podcast directory listings. People who don't understand "podcast" DO get what an MP3 is, and they can download directly.

-No matter how many dashes you use, the existing media outlets *will* dominate podcasting simply because they already lots of money and existing listeners.

-And no amount of dashes will make up for crap!! You may get people giving you an initial listen-to but will they stick around? Even if you're good, will they stick around?

I've listened to quite a few podcasts listed here. Some I love. But some of the ones listed on the top are absolutely awful. (I actually can't speak re: Dawn and Drew since I haven't even BOTHERED with their podcast, since it doesn't interest me.)

So I've found plenty of "top-rated" podcasts that I've downloaded and subscribed to, only to delete from my list of podcasts. And there are plenty of "top-rated" podcasts that I may never listen to, because the subject simply does not interest me.

And there are plenty of other podcasts that I actually like, that I simply have not had the time to listen to frequently.

Given all that - your ability to build and maintain an audience ultimately rests on the QUALITY of your content and how much passion and loyalty that stirs up in your listeners.

I have no idea what will ultimately set certain podcasters apart. Certainly, some early adopters have taken a lead simply because they came out with their podcasts first. But time will tell who has the best podcasts, simply because those who really speak to their core audience will ultimately be the winners.

And success may not mean mass market for everyone; some may have extremely successful podcasts for small niche audiences.

So please - relax about the iTunes thing. Those people who are cynically manipulating their ratings just to get listeners aren't necessarily going to win out in the long run.

[waynealanharold]

Well said! Plus, when TOO many people start using the "dash" trick, it's going to make it a moot point, anyhow.

Your show looks interesting, "Feel Good," I subscribed and am downloading as I type!

[Hittman]

Feelgood, there's more marketing savvy and common sense ideas in your one post than there is in most of the rest of the entries in this thread combined.

Part of the problem is that some of the commentators have no idea what marketing is. Marketing is not advertising. Advertising is just a small piece of marketing. You can market your product without any advertising at all.

Marketing is the name of your show. It's the logo you use. It's the way you behave in this forum. It's the way you interact with people who send you e-mail. If you're selling something face to face, it's not just the way you deal with customers and potential customers. The grammar you use, how you dress, and even how well you're groomed is all part of your marketing, whether you're aware of it or not. And despite screams to the contrary, putting a dash in front of your name is marketing. Legitimate marketing, at that. There's nothing sneaky about it. It's a "trick" that's been used since the first Yellow Pages was published. Probably before that.

When this conversation (and the other threads containing the exact same conversation) started, there were only a few shows in iTunes that used this trick. Now there are dozens, and almost all of them are regular PA members!

The most amazing thing about this conversation is that it's even happening, and going on so long. This is so much more to deal with, Important Stuff, and yet we're setting records on thread length over something this trivial. This the subject could have been covered, in it's entirety, in two posts:

Post #1:

"I see some people are putting dashes in front of their name, and that pisses me off. They're cheating! Waaaaaaaahhh! Waaaaaaaahhhh!"

Post #2:

"It's called marketing, Spunky. Suck it up. Life's tough, get a helmet."

[vox_monitor]

this doesn't bother me.

I don't do it - it is perceived as classless, and I won't make do that to my brand.

Besides, it won't do any good. It's much more likely to have negative consequences than positive consequences.

Ultimately, there are two or three things that will make or break a show, I think.

1. Legwork - all the stupid grunt **** that has to be done, like coding and stuff. If it's not taken care of, there's not going to be success.

2. Networking. It's not a callous thing, necessarily. But some people are less social than others. Someone who likes email a lot needs to be induging in his habit. I like email. I always respond to everyone who emails me about anything, cast related or not. Making friends is it's own reward, and it can have concrete rewards as well.

3. Quality - not just clean audio, or mistake free content - although accomplishing that is plenty tough - but real quality. Quality that is substantial enough to make people passionately want to return to hear more. Quality that is substantial enogh to make people sad when the show ends and impatient for the next one to arrive. Only that will do.

I'm not saying anything about us - I'm not claiming that we meet these criteria or not, I'm just saying that I think that these are the criteria that must be met to be successful. Or at least they will be, soon enough.

[dcolanduno]

this doesn't bother me.

Ultimately, there are two or three things that will make or break a show, I think.

1. Legwork - all the stupid grunt **** that has to be done, like coding and stuff. If it's not taken care of, there's not going to be success.

2. Networking. It's not a callous thing, necessarily. But some people are less social than others. Someone who likes email a lot needs to be induging in his habit. I like email. I always respond to everyone who emails me about anything, cast related or not. Making friends is it's own reward, and it can have concrete rewards as well.

3. Quality - not just clean audio, or mistake free content - although accomplishing that is plenty tough - but real quality. Quality that is substantial enough to make people passionately want to return to hear more. Quality that is substantial enogh to make people sad when the show ends and impatient for the next one to arrive. Only that will do.

I'm not saying anything about us - I'm not claiming that we meet these criteria or not, I'm just saying that I think that these are the criteria that must be met to be successful. Or at least they will be, soon enough.

Meeting those or not... people still have to find the show. You can post on boards like here on Podcast Alley, you can talk to people on other 'niche' places that fit your market. But, last study performed, a fraction of one percent of any market reads or posts in chat boards on the internet.

Your next option is word of mouth networking yourself... Which I do, and I'm sure everyone does person to person. BUT, it only goes so far, because we are contained in local areas and only know so many people, and only so many of them will care about podcasting anyway. Let alone your particular show. Some of them will evangelize, but don't count on it.

Another is the already established media outlets promoting you. Such as, in my case, we had a front page headline in the big local newspaper... you can also provoke it by sending out media kits and such. Also by sending out special promos for fellow podcasters to get some cross promotion in blogs or other shows.

Most of the other options cost some serious money. Which, many of us don't have for our shows... yet ;) Some of us maybe have a plan to monazite some part of our hobby here. Some have bigger plans then that. I have no idea where I fit in this category. I'm more interested in getting the information I talk about out, and letting it fall from there.

So, little tricks like the 'dash' DO get you quite a few extra eyeballs on a directory slogged with shows, MOST of which are re-packaged huge media broadcasts. Standing out is part of marketing, a HUGE part of it.

Individuals have a nasty aversion to marketing themselves for the most part. And that is what I see here. People that are afraid to 'offend' someone else in the podcasting world by attempting to market themselves. Hell, look at the constant crap Adam Curry and Dawn and Drew get just for having OTHER people market for them.

Usually isn't a question of 'class' it is a question of being afraid to fall into one of those over-used and immature titles that unsuccessful people put onto those that step forward: "Sell Out", "Corporate Whore", and the list goes on... We all know those schoolyard chants like the back of our hands. And, in communities like podcasting, people hate to be put into that category. Well, trust me, until some podcaster is driving a yacht and living in a mansion off of his podcast income alone; None of us have come close to selling out, or should be the target of such lame anti-success chatter or the other mindsets that besiege such claims. "You are insulting other podcasters because you marketed yourself." etc, etc... It all stems from the same place.

I don't do it - it is perceived as classless, and I won't make do that to my brand.

Besides, it won't do any good. It's much more likely to have negative consequences than positive consequences.

You can believe that... but it has worked, very successfully throughout history. Almost all marketing is viewed as 'classless' these days in small communities. So, I don't blame anyone for trying to put that label on it here. But, you have recognize how destructive it is to make it an issue, or, worse yet, praise others for NOT marketing themselves.

It always seems like people are saying... "Please don't market yourself, it might me have to."

Most of them aren't but they just don't read between the lines of the people that whine about it. Somehow they begin believe that something as inane as a simple, time-tested, marketing device is somehow classless, or 'un-cool'.

Nope, not even a little bit. Classless would be sending out mass spam after purchasing a huge mailing list. Classless would be using huge half-naked pictures of women to push a product or show that has nothing to do with sex, or half-naked women. Classless is leveraging shocking language for no other reason than ratings.

A dash before your name... you can come up with 1,000 words for it. But 'classless' is a pretty terrible analogy.

And that is the issue.

If we as a community of podcasters have now limited our group perspective on what is acceptable in our marketing toolbox as a community, to the point where you can't even use basic marketing 101 tools to become noticed in a sea of shows that have the backing of mega-bucks behind them. Just because we want to maintain some utopian innocence against corporate mentality. Then we will fade off as most of of the huge media pundits are predicting. And, those guys, are reading stuff like these threads as their rationale for why they believe it will happen.

I can name several HUGE multi-national companies that got their START doing marketing tricks they don't have to do now, because they have the money, resources, and access to the big-signal so they don't have to now.

But when you are small and have only a few tools, people shouldn't be afraid to use them, and the last people that should be holding you, and the rest of podcasting down, should be the community that claims to promote its success.

I'll be honest, it seems like there is now this holier-than-thou attitude that we are 'above' taking advantage of our only chances to get up and out there. In every case I have seen, people try to smash down those that try to, or get recognition, or built some momentum up in a mass market way.

You might think you are 'classy' for following a code that limits your exposure, but thats a mental trap that the big-boys have always counted on, and over time has been the downfall of most indy voices in all media.

You have to use what you got, when it is available. And if a simple 'dash' at the front of a podcasts name is what makes folks in the community go nuts and somehow think 'lesser' of another cast. Those people are utopian fools. We are truly going to have a hard time supporting each other moving forward if these are the types of issues that cause the attitudes I have seen over the past week.

People have been PRAISING folks for de-marketing themselves in this community. Like some holy revival... as if someone had shed some great sin by ending their tyrannical evil marketing ploy. Get a grip. The people really cheering about that, are folks in the headquarters of places like ABC, ESPN, Disney, and others... so they don't have to deal with small time individuals at the top of that list. See, we can change that in our spare time... it takes them weeks of meetings and discussions about their 'brand' and so on.

The folks from Illinoise! put it best... Why WOULDN'T you want to take advantage of the shot you have to be seen on that huge list?

The only compelling answer I've now seen is that you are greeted as a hero for not marketing yourself. Seems a bit foolish and destructive in the long run.

[vox_monitor]

Derek -where's that famous critical thinking, here, eh?

I said that it would be perceived as classless, and I think the damage done by those perceptions greatly outweighs the small and short lived benefits. And I continue to believe that to be the case - for me and my show, not necessarily for you and yours or mr smith and his show.

You might think you are 'classy' for following a code that limits your exposure, but thats a mental trap that the big-boys have always counted on, and over time has been the downfall of most indy voices in all media.

This fails to account for the subtle-ties of an increasingly fragmented market. Understanding one's audience, one's target audience and one's capacity to broaden appeal without killing the goose makes these issue very individualized. Each choice must be made in the context of how things ACTUALLY ARE for YOU and YOUR show. That's why it is tricky. Because any set of hard and fast rules will be at least partially wrong for a given show, provided that show isn't utterly derivative.

One of the biggest consistent failures that people make when thinking about creating and marketing a brand is thinking too big. Only extremely well funded ideas start out that way. All organically occuring big things stated out very focused, very niche, and very attentive to the mindset of that niche.

And don't underestimate word of mouth as far as this limited scope appoach goes. Word of mouth, on the internet, is extremely powerful. Your word of mouth reasoning discounts the fact that most word of mouth that I'm interested in takes place via text, electronincally. Geographical issues don't come into play.

A dash before your name... you can come up with 1,000 words for it. But 'classless' is a pretty terrible analogy.

Classless may or may not be a good descriptor. I mean, I think class manifests itself primarily in acts where one accepts limits on behavior for reasons other than necessity or immediate gain. For example, USC, a classy football team, was universally called "classy" because they players elected not to gloat, or whine or whatever in various situations. Why did they elect these unecessary limits? Because such restraint was the classy way.

So to me, "classless," in this context, doesn't seem to be too poor a choice of adjective.

But remember, I was describing perceptions, not the behavior itself, when I used the word.

[Patrick]

Derek, do you really think I have an aversion towards marketing yourself of your show? Really? That's all I do with my show, is market it.

That logic isn't even close to true.

[podcastshuffle]

I never said anyone was doing this because they hate other podcasters. Don't put words in my mouth.

I never said anyone was doing this to disrespect other podcasters. I did say that doing it DOES happen to disrespect other podcasters.

Everyone who is doing it is doing is because they think they're podcast should be listed more prominently than everyone elses. Period.

That's selfish, disrespectful, and has an adverse affect on everyone else listed.

There's nothing else to say. Those are facts.

And how about -NLO- ?

http://www.podcastshuffle.com/images/-nlo-.png

Hmm. You turned to the to the dark side faster than Anakin. Can't beat them join them I guess.

Jeff

[Patrick]

Perhaps...

[no1slistening]

What comes before a dash?

Do you guys think this will shoot me to the top of all the categories I'm listed in:

&#$% No 1's Listening &#$%

I think it looks cool.

[joelthecomic]

It's pretty sleazy, if you ask me. If Corey and I did the same thing, we'd be accused of being "against the podcasting community", etc., etc. It's not unlike the sleazy tactics people use to get to the top of Google's search results. It's wrong then, and it's wrong now.

Here's hoping iTunes gets rid of non-alphabetical characters at the beginning (and even "A" "An" and "The" would be good. Until then, choke on your bandwidth, bastards.

[no1slistening]

My last post = sarcasm.

For comedians, you guys can't see a joke very well. :wink:

[jimk]

I'm changing my show to ~!00112233445566778899AAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAArkcast.

It freakin' rolls off the tongue.

[everad]

Why don't you podcaster just shut up and play some music!!!!

Am a priest but am a Rebel
Some are God and some are devil
Punnany is the reason for my troubles
It's not my ego
I can't get enough it seems
A simple touch rise it up with ease
But I can't sex away my dreams
Siemen like dreams, With these water Queens
Yo rudeboy I gotta tell you
Life with a girl can bring such sorrow
When it's sweet in the hole
You make her toes curl
But when drama unfolds love turn so cold

(Hook)
I play the feild cause am a field brother
I keep it real cause am a real brother
Hurting ladies, aborted fetus
We break up for reasons but why the future
Too many stars never live to shine
I know I can make it one more time
Life is mystic and the concepts devine
More precious than golden coins

Baby mama no more drama
Cause we were young, but now we are older
And every child needs his mama his dada
Don't hurt the futrue, help us father
The youths are suffering
Can a mother cease care for the belly pain
The child she bare from him, whom she wont love again

I gotta hail the warriors from the NYC
Big up the family, yo whaddup Tampa Bay
The light of the world reach the West Indies
Rasta run the heavens, run the earth and run the seas
We burn pope benedict and Hercules
And hail Melchesidek the higher priest
We show them love, but they want no peace
Give me love, but if it's war, ANY MEANS
Special Raspect to the Black Nation
Volcano erupt from the Volcan land
From the annex Black sand rise a thunderstorm
They can't keep us calm, They can't keep us calm


Rebel Priest - Vineyard

ITunes: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=53787431

MSN Music: http://music.msn.com/album/?album=41841239

[spartacusroosevelt]

The first person that names themselves Tilde Bangbang (~!!) will have everyone beat.

[ferg]

It's pretty sleazy...

Here's hoping iTunes gets rid of non-alphabetical characters at the beginning (and even "A" "An" and "The" would be good. Until then, choke on your bandwidth, bastards.

I agree that it's sleazy, even though I'm doing it. I'm whoring myself for more listeners. I'm not ashamed, but I do recognize its lameness.

All of that said, I would be all for stripping any non alphanumerics off of the beginning, or at least ignoring them, but then people would just stack "A"s in front of their names...

I guess I took a "if you can't beat em, join em" attitude...I'm not blaming anyone else for my cheesiness, I'm just sayin...

[Hittman]

I don't have an MP3 player. I download my feeds, burn them to a CD, listen to them on a CD player that plays MP3s, and toss the CD when I'm done with it. By default, the burner puts the shows in apphebital order, which I like, because it makes it easier to find things.

My last download was a few days ago. I looked at the list, and Skepticaly was at the top. They had named their file with their show number: "010 – Skepticality."

Evil Bastards!

[docsnavely]

-josh-in-japan-

-the-life-of-an-american-living-in-japan-

-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-tack-

(sorry, just trying to reach 200)

[podcastshuffle]

The first person that names themselves Tilde Bangbang (~!!) will have everyone beat.

Not sure about "tilde" but "bangbang" would probably come after "dash" or "dash space". I would have thought ! would come first but it didn't in fact. We'd have to check with the Illinoise! guys (formerly known as !Illinoise!).

BTW - Check out the: - - AAA Podcast where the tag line is Push Down Everyone Else!

In episode 3 I'll be talking about ... wait you'll have to subscribe to get the tip. ;)

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74848421

#1 everywhere I'm listed (except for Audio Blogs - but only on the the Mac version of iTunes! Darn that - 5 Questions guy. He is a saavy marketer!!! still odd that windows version sorts my show higher and Mac doesn't)

Jeff

[dcolanduno]

It's pretty sleazy, if you ask me. If Corey and I did the same thing, we'd be accused of being "against the podcasting community", etc., etc. It's not unlike the sleazy tactics people use to get to the top of Google's search results. It's wrong then, and it's wrong now.

Like? Not sure any tactic is 'sleazy' to get to the top of a search engine. Remember on the internet it *IS* about people being able to find you. As long as you content is pertainent to the search keywords that you used to get yourself to the top of a search. How is it sleazy?

Basically, then, you roll over and just let fate decide how people find you?

I'm confused on that one.

Now, if you flood a whole ton of words and such you AREN'T providing content for, then that *IS* sleazy.

Take for example, my show in iTunes, I have done some things to make myself show up high as I can when you search for 'science' or browse in the category.

That is just simple marketing on the currently widest used and viewed directory. Is it sleazy that I made sure my keywords and such put me up on the top of the searches that I think my show pertains to?

I also ONLY listed myself on the Science category. I guess I could add myself to one of the sub-cats of the Religion section as well, but it doesn't fit real well.

I might be agressive in marketing my show, but I do only contain it to the market that is looking for my content.

Here's hoping iTunes gets rid of non-alphabetical characters at the beginning (and even "A" "An" and "The" would be good. Until then, choke on your bandwidth, bastards.

Unless they randomize the listings somehow then it is useless. Because whatever rules they make, you will see manipulations of the system in an alphabetical listing like that.

Some of the issue is not enough granularity. Some of it is a bad method of browsing for new shows. There are a lot of things Apple needs to fix before stripping the non-alphas. Not that I would care if they did really. But, if they do, a lot of AAA <my podcast> will start to spring up. Already have.

Stripping the lone 'A', 'The', etc off wouldn't be a terrible idea.

[joelthecomic]

Like? Not sure any tactic is 'sleazy' to get to the top of a search engine. Remember on the internet it *IS* about people being able to find you. As long as you content is pertainent to the search keywords that you used to get yourself to the top of a search. How is it sleazy?

Basically, then, you roll over and just let fate decide how people find you?

I'm confused on that one.

Now, if you flood a whole ton of words and such you AREN'T providing content for, then that *IS* sleazy.

Take for example, my show in iTunes, I have done some things to make myself show up high as I can when you search for 'science' or browse in the category.

That is just simple marketing on the currently widest used and viewed directory. Is it sleazy that I made sure my keywords and such put me up on the top of the searches that I think my show pertains to?

I also ONLY listed myself on the Science category. I guess I could add myself to one of the sub-cats of the Religion section as well, but it doesn't fit real well.

I might be agressive in marketing my show, but I do only contain it to the market that is looking for my content.



There is an order to the genre listings in iTunes - it's alphabetical. If you change the name of your show to a made-up name (by adding characters or whatever) then you're manipulating the system. Now that is to your benefit, but it is to the detriment of the others shows listed.

Because I know how these things work, I would never listen to a show by some *****le who did this. Really. It says a lot about you and who you are. iTunes is providing you with a free service then you effectively destroy the system they have in place to keep things organized. Apple should view this as a violation of thier terms of service and then boot those shows from the directory.

If you're so commited to promoting your show then buy some commercials or a billboard or an annoying banner ad on this site like Richard Vobes. Or just change your name to "I'm Desperate for You To Listen to My Lame Podcast" or "- I'm Desperate for You To Listen to My Lame Podcast", it would be more appropriate.

Cocks.

[dcolanduno]

There is an order to the genre listings in iTunes - it's alphabetical. If you change the name of your show to a made-up name (by adding characters or whatever) then you're manipulating the system.

First off, love how you didn't address a single thing I wrote in my post. You just used my reply as a way to just blatantly attack people ad-hominim. THAT says a lot about you.

Best part is... I even agreed with some of what you said. You are just so shallow, an attack is all you can muster. Lets hear one for the art of conversation and discussion.

Especially since if you read almost all my posts, all I usually try to do is help other folks and promote indy podcasting in general.

I'll reply anyway...

Now that is to your benefit, but it is to the detriment of the others shows listed.

It is also to *my* detriment that a ton of shows start with names A-S as well then I guess. That is a circular argument.

So, how do we determine what is a 'fair' name for a podcast. Since having someone listed before you is to the detriment of all others? Do we require all new podcasts to start with the letter 'Z'?

Seriously, when someone names a new podcast 'Aaron's Corner' how will you know if it wasn't just to get above everyone else then? Easy as pie to make your 'stage' name something that ranks higher than everyone else.

Explain how it is 'detrimental' then. In the grand scheme of things. The only REAL argument is that it 'could' be detrimental to those people that PUT the dash in front, because they can't be found in the normal 'alphabetical' listing, unless the person looks through all the other '-' beginning shows. The folks that DONT do it... they can be found easier in an alphabetical list.

Makes sense if you believe the alphabetical listing works best.

Because I know how these things work, I would never listen to a show by some *****le who did this. Really. It says a lot about you and who you are.

How do things work then? That is a pretty childish statement.

So, tons of people are '*****les' because they wanted to get noticed on the list of shows with the largest number of new listeners. Yea, they were all attacking you directly, and wanted to piss you off. You know, ESPN, those guys are *****les too, they have a big banner on the front page. Oh, and so is that podcast that started with the letter 'A'... **** them, those *****les.

Yea, tons of people that I see doing that, are some of the most helpful and genuine people in podcasting. Sad that you are so shallow minded you just re-categorize people based on something that 'you' don't want to do.

Chalk it up to a different advertising style, and get a grip.

iTunes is providing you with a free service then you effectively destroy the system they have in place to keep things organized. Apple should view this as a violation of thier terms of service and then boot those shows from the directory.

There are Mainstream Music producers in their normal iTunes store doing this. There is no rule in their Terms and Conditions for it, they could put out a press release and tell people that they are changing the rules. But, what about some of the shows that ACTUALLY have had a symbol in there as the first character or two? Because, there are some... How do you handle those cases?

Then, how do you stop people from just getting into the AAA Podcast, AAAA Podcast wars? Does it become a 'judgement call' by someone what podcast names are legit?

If you're so commited to promoting your show then buy some commercials or a billboard or an annoying banner ad on this site like Richard Vobes. Or just change your name to "I'm Desperate for You To Listen to My Lame Podcast" or "- I'm Desperate for You To Listen to My Lame Podcast", it would be more appropriate.

Cute... but not funny... I know you tried to be funny, but you were posting in too much of an aggressive manner to come off as anything but 'desperate'.

Anyway... take a look at your 'beloved' Vobes on iTunes next time you get a chance. There is a '-' in front of his podcast name! <smirk>

People have lavished so much praise down the back of that podcast, I wonder if his whole show sucks now, just because he dared to promote it a little. That's right, it totally sucks now... **** that little dash can really kill the content of a show!

Maybe if you go back and look at previous posts made on this topic. And, you had a small amount of common sense. You would understand the bigger picture.

We, as podcasters that do not have most or any of the following;

- Money

- A Big Banner on Apples Front Page

- Huge Broadcast Benefits

Have few tools right now to reach peoples eyeballs. Funny how easy it is to attack folks in the 'community' some of you claim to want to promote, EVERY TIME someone attempts to stick their head out a little.

I guess it is okay to get attention if you go out and spend tons of cash on it?

Wait... I've seen people here get tossed in the shredder even worse for doing that as well.

Give it a couple more weeks, and all those symbols will start to drop off. Why? Because all guerilla marketing tactics have a short shelf life.

MANY, MANY, MANY, huge, respected companies did far more blatant and generally 'annoying' advertising tricks when they were first getting their names out. When you are low on money and resources, and there is a new trick or way to get your name out for a brief time, it is wise to make a run for it.

These type of marketing tricks have a very short shelf life. This one, is almost over. Might already be done as it is. It was only 'good' for that first blast of people, to rise out above the MULTITUDE of corporate and re-purposed broadcasting podcasts out there.

Cocks.

So, right now we have this attitude happening. Where, it is okay to just toss around stupid, un-educated sounding insults, at each other in what used to be a really cool community. Over one of the FEW tools we now all have to get the eyeballs of the LARGEST number of potential listeners we have ever had a chance to garner.

Funny how months of people being helpful to each other, and trying to get the attention of the media, and more listeners has made us all so polite to each other.

Also it is funny how I have noticed that everyone that has responded in a manner that addresses the reality of how promotion works, and how it isn't the end of the world to take short advantage of an opportunity we have to get some attention... Those folks... they have all be civil and have tried to explain things rationally.

Everyone that keeps speaking up about it, has come out of the gate firing off cheap shots, and just being downright insulting and holier than thou about something that is, quite frankly, an easy topic to have a rational discussion about.

EVEN when someone has tried to make a nice logical statement against why promoting yourself to a wider audience is a terrible thing. They still all have some sort of cheap 'zinger' in their response.

Gotta tell you, it is the first sign that your argument is weak.

[feelgoodgirl]

Some of you need to shut up and stop defending yourselves.

The wry comment I am going to make here is that some of the overtly defensive comments and pretentious posturing going on in this topic are probably the worst anti-marketing you could do for your show.

I've gotten many nice comments, new listeners and moral support from many cool people on these boards. Respect other podcasters. By responding in such nasty ways to the rest of the community, you are biting the hand that "feeds" you.

This is why it is very upsetting for some podcasters that others don't give two craps about supporting the rest of the community, and are resorting to cheesy, lame marketing tactics to push themselves up in front of everyone else. Podcasting has been a wonderful, anti-competitive environment and it sucks to have people go and abuse the system just to get a few more clicks on their iTunes listing.

But in the least, if you're going to do it, understand that you're not being generous or nice, and don't try to pretend it's anything but an attempt at cutthroat marketing. Don't try to justify it. You're just making yourself look worse.

At any rate, this discussion is certainly giving me a list of people whose podcasts I *won't* subscribe to.

[docsnavely]

sounds like the feel good girl isn't feeling so good!

:P ..... great points though!!!!!!

[dcolanduno]

Some of you need to shut up and stop defending yourselves.

The wry comment I am going to make here is that some of the overtly defensive and downright obnoxious flames going on in this topic are probably the worst anti-marketing you could do for your show.

I've gotten many nice comments, new listeners and moral support from many cool people on these boards. Respect other podcasters. By responding in such nasty ways to the rest of the community, you are biting the hand that "feeds" you.

It's certainly giving me a list of people whose podcasts I *won't* subscribe to.

While I don't think that just walking off and not attempting to have a 'normal' discussion about things is the best way to handle it...

I DO agree, and have tried to state exactly what you said here 1,000 times throughout this whole thread.

I'm unsure of why people have to 'attack' others or twist/makeup bad intentions that others have to somehow prove a point.

I can understand disagreeing with something, but it is quite obvious that in no way has anyone tried to attack, or be 'mean', etc, to ANY other podcaster by marketing themselves.

That assumption, keeps leading to just blatant attacks and no real discussion or logical commentary.

[podcastshuffle]

At any rate, this discussion is certainly giving me a list of people whose podcasts I *won't* subscribe to.

Yes!!! Please don't subscribe to the ----- AAA Podcast ----- ! Some people are but I beg and implore you not to!

Jeff

PS: In epsisode 4 Darth Maul will reveal himself to the podcasters....
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74848421

PPS: I now have "Clean Lyrics!" in iTunes just like a bad rap song. Check It out. (don't subscribe)

[jeffoest]

After 8 pages of much repetition of the same theme and some personal attacks and attitude, I will go ahead and lock down this thread.

If there are any new thoughts or angles that people want to bring into this issue, please go ahead and start a new thread.