Why aren't the people who KNOW helping us out?

[ferg]

Here's my question...

Why are the people who produce the podcasts that are categorized, with full photos et al in the iTunes directory helping us out here. It's Curry's group, and a few others.

My intention is not to bash these people. Many are podcasts to which I've subscribed regularly for some time, but I guess what I'm saying is this:

Some of you guys (those who are all setup in iTunes) read these forums, and see us all struggling to get it right, so that, perhaps, once iTunes starts rolling again with feeds, we can get where we need to be.

I'm sure that, if you knew about this all ahead of time, you were involved in some sort of NDA, but the "official spec" (which clearly has some errors) has been released. The software has been released. Are you still not allowed to talk?

If you truly are legally bound from doing so, just say so, and I'll understand. Even if you're not legally bound from doing so, you're under no obligation to provide us with any info, of course, but it just seems to me that, in the past, this community has been quick to help each other out, and there are people who seem to have the knowledge to provide that help, so I'm just asking....

[camilian]

Hey Ferg,

I was able to get my feed working using the spec sheet from Apple (no I didn't get any information nor did I get special treatment). It took two days for Apple to get all the info sucked in, but now it is there. If anyone wants help feel free to contact me chris ( at ) apeboymonkeygirl.com

[dcolanduno]

Here's my question...

Why are the people who produce the podcasts that are categorized, with full photos et al in the iTunes directory helping us out here. It's Curry's group, and a few others.

My intention is not to bash these people. Many are podcasts to which I've subscribed regularly for some time, but I guess what I'm saying is this:

Some of you guys (those who are all setup in iTunes) read these forums, and see us all struggling to get it right, so that, perhaps, once iTunes starts rolling again with feeds, we can get where we need to be.

I agree, it is something that has bothered me more than not being listed. I don't see how the RSS tags were an NDA issue, but if they were, okay, I can live with that. But, since then, all those folks that were all nice and tidy and setup on the front page of iTunes the first second it hit the street... I haven't seen them out helping everyone in a public forum.

It is possible that they are now just busy as heck now that the iTunes is up and running. But, yes, in the past it did seem that the community was very quick to jump in and help folks out.

I would still even love someone from Apple, or just a simple press release to explain why some podcasts were listed, and some weren't. It was obvious 97% of it was just a direct pull from directories. Heck, some of those casts up there are broken, haven't been updated in over 2 months, etc, etc... so they weren't 'hand chosen' or checked in any way.

Heck, even if it was just Apple saying; "We had an error importing data, so some casts got left off for opening day. We are working hard to get them back on."

It just seems like suddenly, there is this, uncomfortable rift now... that no one wants to talk about. Or, they want to gloss it up a little.

If anyone wants help feel free to contact me chris ( at ) apeboymonkeygirl.com

Thanks camilian... I think I got mine under control. Maybe we should put together a Wiki, or webpage we can put up as more of a 'tutorial' to explain the situation and tags. Lots of people are confused. I've had to explain it to a few people today alone.

[danklass]

Hey, Ferg. I was lucky enough to have an image tag in my feed that Feeder puts in. I guess they used that to convert to the much debated <itunes:image> or <itunes:url> tag.

Michael Geoghegan messed around with all the tags for HOURS the other day and finally got a validating feed. The changes are only just now being reflected at iTunes...first the name, now the art...

The easiest thing to do might be to go to your DETAILS area for your site on Podcast Alley and click on the "iTunes Feed" link. Then, VIEW SOURCE, and copy/paste that code into a new doc. You can then add art work links, clean up the copyright info, etc. and upload. The frustrating thing is that iTunes is so slow, you won't know if its working until Monday. Yikes.

Feedburner and Feeder both assure me that they will have iTunes compatibility within a month. Michael was able to hardwire the iTunes tags into his WordPress set-up.

I use Feeder and will probably wait until their next release to start sweating it, or I'll get anxious and try the method above.

[danklass]

re: wiki

http://voxmedia.org/wiki/ITunes_Tips

This has a link to a PDF listing all the tags.[/url]

[camilian]

I am not a feedburner user, but am wondering if they allow people to show the normal xml, and kill all the crap that makes the page pretty?

[dcolanduno]

I use Feeder and will probably wait until their next release to start sweating it, or I'll get anxious and try the method above.

Dan, I never had told you how much fun I have listening to your 80's show... great stuff...

Michael Geoghegan messed around with all the tags for HOURS the other day and finally got a validating feed. The changes are only just now being reflected at iTunes...first the name, now the art...

Hey, if it were too easy we'd all be podcasting! ;)

I'm not sure why iTunes is so slow though. I would have done the updating on the users computer...

Like, basically, you click a podcast link on iTunes, then your computer could go can download the information from the feed directly. And the ones you subscribe to, could update when you check. Would take all that stress off the Apple system, speed everything up most likely.

That set aside... I messed with the art a bunch... it's working now off my libsyn account. Also, got it to work on my non-libsyn feed as well... took a bit of playing, the order of the tags seemed important.

[ferg]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think it's the category thing that bugs me the most...I figured out a temporary way to take care of my feedburner business...we'll see if it pays off in a couple of days.

I am not a feedburner user, but am wondering if they allow people to show the normal xml, and kill all the crap that makes the page pretty?

You can show the normal XML - if you look at my feed, that's what you'll see http://feeds.feedburner.com/airferg

Thanks to you, too, Dan for the info!

[kickasspodcast]

Ferg...

I feel your pain... I really do. But I can't say I am suprised at the massive frustration there has been with 4.9. I am even more upset with
the whole "Audio Blog" B.S. I am not suprised a bit, companys like Apple want to make money, and all of their focus groups, and studies told them that a highly touted- weak aggregator (which in itself is arguably pointless) with lots of Adds for CommercialCasters. What a suprise it is to see the top
rated shows all have big advertising banners. This does not mean good things can't come out of itunes or Apple but it comes with alotta headaches.

And what the heck are we all Audio Bloggers now?

That offends both us podcasters, and good bloggers. Am I wrong?

Keep the faith- your show kicks ***- you have nothing to worry about.
8)

Jack

does our newest show sound like an Audio Blog to you? Me thinks not.
http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc14.mp3

[Patrick]

Jack you stole my rant...

:lol:

[Ted Riecken]

As a podcaster who uses Radio as my blogging tool it looks like it will be quite a challenge to modify the Radio generated RSS feed to meet the iTunes specs.

I was lucky enough to have my podcast pulled in on the initial scoop of the directories, but the show info that iTunes shows is messed up in that it pulls in the first line of HTML from my posts and drops that in the Description field of the the individual podcasts from my site.

iPodder doesn't do this nor do any of the directories that pull in my feed. I've got artwork that I'd love to show on my iTunes site but the pdf of the specs Apple has provided looks like it will take some doing to align their formatting with the RSS that Radio generates.

Are there any Radio UserLand users out there that have had success in modifying their feed to include artwork and proper handling of title/description tags?

[Ian]

I called KCRW which produces several of Apple's featured podcasts, and they claimed that Apple approached them...

I tried calling Apple, and their itunes dept voice mail is full.

Patience is a virtue... hopefully they get the kinks worked out soon.

[celerityfm]

I'm not one of those guys, but I did figure out how to get "podcasts full of pictures" going-- read my tutorial here: http://www.voxmedia.org/wiki/PodcastChapterTool

[cc_chapman]

Why are the people who produce the podcasts that are categorized, with full photos et al in the iTunes directory helping us out here. It's Curry's group, and a few others.

I guess I would be one of those and I'll be blatently honest that I personally had nothing to do with it so I don't know how to help. iTunes went live and there I was.

The gnomes in the caves made it work and I appreciate it.

The iTunes spec helps and the message boards have been a good assistance as I try to help others

[notyourusualbollocks]

How are the t-shirts selling, CC?

MK

[cc_chapman]

How are the t-shirts selling, CC?


I've sold a couple but not that many. Hoping the iTunes wave will sell some more so that I can send more $$$ to Len. He deserves it.

[pwfenton]

Here's my question...

Why are the people who produce the podcasts that are categorized, with full photos et al in the iTunes directory helping us out here. It's Curry's group, and a few others.

My intention is not to bash these people. Many are podcasts to which I've subscribed regularly for some time, but I guess what I'm saying is this:

Some of you guys (those who are all setup in iTunes) read these forums, and see us all struggling to get it right, so that, perhaps, once iTunes starts rolling again with feeds, we can get where we need to be.

I'm sure that, if you knew about this all ahead of time, you were involved in some sort of NDA, but the "official spec" (which clearly has some errors) has been released. The software has been released. Are you still not allowed to talk?

If you truly are legally bound from doing so, just say so, and I'll understand. Even if you're not legally bound from doing so, you're under no obligation to provide us with any info, of course, but it just seems to me that, in the past, this community has been quick to help each other out, and there are people who seem to have the knowledge to provide that help, so I'm just asking....

Again I am amazed by the attitude of people who have been helped immeasurably by the "Curry group" that just love to diss them in this forum. Ferg... how many times has your stuff been played on the DSC and Podshow? Did you see a direct result in your rankings?

The truth is, many people had feeds that worked perfectly with iTunes from day one, that had no help from anyone. I am one of them. I suspect my picture worked because it's in my RSS feed and not just in my .mp3s

All the help you could possibly need was available from day one right from iTunes.

The technical specs for an iTunes compatible feed, and beta software (for Mac and Unix only) that allows you to create feeds with syncronized pictures and links is available from Apple. You must use iTunes to get to it. I tried just using the URLs but they don't work outside of iTunes.

To download them go to iTunes... the podcast area... and then click on "Publish a Podcast"... on the next page click the link "Learn more about podcasting on iTunes" in the illustration at the top. In the following page, that tells you basic stuff, you will find the links to the two items of interest.

[notyourusualbollocks]

I must admit that it hasn't been easy to figure out what type of RSS feed to supply to iTunes. Initially I submitted my original libsyn feed but now I've made sure that my libsyn feed is iTunes compatible. I had NO idea that you had to actually modify the feed and I'm sure many others didn't either. I'd be curious to see if submissions were rejected on the basis that they were not in the itunes format.

MK

[celerityfm]

I guess I would be one of those and I'll be blatently honest that I personally had nothing to do with it so I don't know how to help. iTunes went live and there I was.

The gnomes in the caves made it work and I appreciate it.

The iTunes spec helps and the message boards have been a good assistance as I try to help others

Apparently your not the only one-- Check this out (http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17174#17174), Fr. Roderick from The Catholic Insider podcast had a similar experience to you :)

[kickasspodcast]

All the help you could possibly need was available from day one right from iTunes.

The technical specs for an iTunes compatible feed, and that allows you to create feeds with syncronized pictures and links is available from Apple. You must use iTunes to get to it.


This is where its just all wrong. I don't need nor do I really want any help from apple in producing or syndicating of my show. Nobody needs any help from Apple at all. Only if they want to dive into a huge pool of commercialism where d.i.y. podcasters get catagorized as Audio Blogs and those 'sell out' commercial casters get dual listings.

Not to mention this part of what you said
beta software (for Mac and Unix only)
Yay! More beta software for Mac and Unix! I am sure those 14% of all computer users are ecstatic yay! The other 85% who uses windows... well...


You see, its this kind of attitude that does nothing to help people or further the common good. I have been here long enough to know Ferg to be reasonable and rational pretty much 100% of the time. Its nearing offensive when he gets dissed like this.

Ferg... how many times has your stuff been played on the DSC and Podshow? Did you see a direct result in your rankings?

Yea Ferg, you *****le!
Don't you know if your commercial gets played on another Podcast you have abosultely no right to ask for help from the people who are cashing in on the "podcasting craze". Your ratings ferg! Your ratings! Because we all know you would rather have higher ratings than things actually work.

I have not bashed Curry, Podshow, I have spoken highly of Digital Floatsam and yourself P. W.

That having been said, I would caution you to slow down and realize what the perception of people is when they actually believed itunes 4.9 would list all podcasts in correct catagories and give everyone their due respect. And now that this couldn't be further from the truth- you are lashing out at Ferg for asking for help?

Apple clearly came into podcasting looking to make as much money as possible without caring about the content or the evolution of Audio Webcasting.

You factor in people wanting to make money off an art form and you can factor out creativity, honesty, and sincerity.

Just look at their top 10 and tell me all of Itunes is not a joke.

There is clearly a forming rift between those looking to cash in on their shows- and those who do it out of pocket for the love. There is a fundamental difference that would be naive to ignore.

The problem with itunes is the same problem with feedburner, lybsyn, pod nova, and everyone else looking to cash in on the creativity and sincerity of audio webcasters. They are just one more thing to get in between the shows creaters and the listeners. Its just a way for someone to make money selling advertisements while listing your site or hosting some forums.

All you have to do to listen to any podcast in the world is click 1 direct link to download or open the show- and voila! Why are we people such suckers in believing we need anything but an internet connection and the love for the art itself to succeed or flourish.

Even our name has been exploited into a fast buck for apple and a permanant builtin advertisement for Steve Jobs. Podcasting heh- its Webcasting- nothing we do involves an ipod. Its webcasting. We are all webcasting. There is no such thing as podcasting. Unless you only make your show for people to listen to on an ipod. Its Audio Webcasting.
IF we have to embrace the term 'podcasting' for a while fine, but the free
lunch won't last long for Apple.


My strong advice to any podcasters out there who are frustrated.
Defy and Deny outsiders from exploiting your show.
It is the best thing you can do to keep your show fresh and original and pure.


I am really a fan of Curry and of Your own show Digital Floatsam- however I had to take exception to the overall incredulity regarding peoples' problems with itunes. There have been way too many posts and problems for people not to be given the respect and assistance they need. If you don't know how to help- that is fine just say so. Don't slam the people who are asking for help.

I am not asking for help. I am boycotting itunes 4.9+++.
I will never list our show in that directory and we will be far better off because of it. If people want to use itunes to get our show- fine- but you can keep me out of anyplace like that.

I have a feeling I am not the only one.

Jack

[ferg]

Again I am amazed by the attitude of people who have been helped immeasurably by the "Curry group" that just love to diss them in this forum. Ferg... how many times has your stuff been played on the DSC and Podshow? Did you see a direct result in your rankings?


If this is what you gather from the tone of my original post, I apologize. In mentioning the podshow peeps, I was only saying - these are people that have been active in the forums in the past, and they see we're all struggling here. If it came across as a diss, that was not my intention.

I have stated openly on these forums that I am a fan and regular listener to several of the podshow podcasts, including the Daily Source Code.

I have no disdain or dislike of Adam Curry or any of the other people involved in the podshow realm.

I don't get a chance to listen to the Sirius show, but I know that my promos have been played on DSC twice, each time providing a substantial boost to my listenership (a fair bit of which has actually remained).

I do confess that I was very frustrated at the time I wrote the prior post. I had followed the spec, and even been told by people whose feed was working that it looked good. In the end, it was Chris Rockwell who ultimately helped me get it straightened out.

If you look back at my post, you'll see that I did not say anything derogatory about Adam Curry or anyone, really...but if it seemed that I was implying something negative, honestly, that was not my intention.

[dcolanduno]

Why are the people who produce the podcasts that are categorized, with full photos et al in the iTunes directory helping us out here. It's Curry's group, and a few others.

I guess I would be one of those and I'll be blatently honest that I personally had nothing to do with it so I don't know how to help. iTunes went live and there I was.

The gnomes in the caves made it work and I appreciate it.

The iTunes spec helps and the message boards have been a good assistance as I try to help others

Thanks CC that clears up a big question a lot of people have, including myself. It seemed like a strange way to roll out a new RSS tag-set. And I don't know what was so 'secret' in that new set of tags that made them not push that spec out to the public a couple weeks ago, and give us a place to test them.

I honestly think they need, or SOMEONE needs, to make a cool script that verifies your feed and shows you what it will look like in the iTunes store. This is sorely needed because of the Apple delay. I've heard so many issues with the tag setup that it would be nice for Apple to give us a tool we could download, or use on the internet to verify and see what our tags will do when the iTunes spider hits us once every 3-4 days.

[Patrick]

if the iTunes store only updates your feed every 3-4 days it's bullshit. I mean, right now while the sort it out, it's fine, but having your episodes show up 4 days later than the release is stupid.

[dcolanduno]

Again I am amazed by the attitude of people who have been helped immeasurably by the "Curry group" that just love to diss them in this forum. Ferg... how many times has your stuff been played on the DSC and Podshow? Did you see a direct result in your rankings?

Unfortunately it does go with the territory of being so closely in the loop. It is no mystery that the 'Curry Group', this is starting to sound like 'The Masons' or some other secret society! Anyway, my point...

It was clear that when we saw the release of iTunes 4.9, that front page was basically a homage to Big Business radio, and if it was Indie, it was all the stuff that Curry regularly swoons over.

That DOESN'T make the shows that are in the 'Curry Group' bad. It just suddenly creates a feeling that the course of podcasting on iTunes is less in the hands of the listeners and the community, and more in the hands of Curry, and possibly the few that surround him.

No matter how far from the truth that might have been, or even if it is true, it will make many people feel like they worked so hard to build podcasting into something so big that Apple changed the course of their most popular product. And now, that work has been given to every pre-established radio station, car company, and one man, Adam Curry. Who, quite frankly, is said to be the reason we are all here by many in the media, and even many folks in the community.

P.W. I wouldn't take it personally, but I would try to understand the position, and mindset many folks are in right now. You work REAL hard on the Sirius show, and still find some time to create a show many of us love. I am VERY familiar with working hard on something to see people tear it down, or generate an opinion that I am not 'including' them or directly attacking them somehow. It's a rock and a hard place.

I think what ferg, myself, and many other really want to get our arms around, is how this is all actually working. We have no real idea how or why Apple did a lot of what they have done.

Why is it taking 3 days to update a database of 3000 podcasts? I can do that on my PC here in an application that would take me 1 hour to create. I'm not even kidding there, it is a very simple thing to do.

That is just one of the many issues people have, and when lots of big non-sensical issues like that are left un-addressed, people will spit and get restless with everyone in arms length.

I think you have done a good job in the past with trying to keep people informed, and you are quite active here, dispute the crazy schedule I know you have had lately. Don't let it get under the green skin of your avatar! :)

The truth is, many people had feeds that worked perfectly with iTunes from day one, that had no help from anyone. I am one of them. I suspect my picture worked because it's in my RSS feed and not just in my .mp3s

I did too, it didn't work for me, or for lots of people. There are too many stories from too many really smart people about all sorts of issues with the tags that make it more of an issue for those that are having real problems.


All the help you could possibly need was available from day one right from iTunes.

The technical specs for an iTunes compatible feed, and beta software (for Mac and Unix only) that allows you to create feeds with syncronized pictures and links is available from Apple. You must use iTunes to get to it. I tried just using the URLs but they don't work outside of iTunes.

To download them go to iTunes... the podcast area... and then click on "Publish a Podcast"... on the next page click the link "Learn more about podcasting on iTunes" in the illustration at the top. In the following page, that tells you basic stuff, you will find the links to the two items of interest.

I tried to a few times, kept getting errors... going to go try again. I think I got my feed cleaned up. I am finally now on iTunes, but I am not in any category, so to find me, you have to search for my podcast name. At least I am half way there!

[dcolanduno]

Yay! More beta software for Mac and Unix! I am sure those 14% of all computer users are ecstatic yay! The other 85% who uses windows... well...

I'm going to say something here that you might hate.

GOOD. I don't mind Apple leveraging their popularity against Windows and Microsoft if they want to. Microsoft does it all the time. There are HOW many Microsoft applications that aren't out for Mac or UNIX? Ummm, 96% of them.

It is that type of stuff that put Windows in that 85% number you just mentioned. I have no problem with companies doing things that way to drive people to their side of the camp. Especially when that is the mantra used by the leader in the industry. You can't fight a different war than the one that you are in.

With that said... I'm sure it will come out for Windows as well anyway.

I wouldn't mind Apple pulling the same trick that Windows did with many of its lead software applications, and now that iPods and iTunes has a huge following, pull them from Windows and try to suck them over to Mac... I just like it when folks get their own in the end. I don't honestly believe Apple has enough power in the industry to do that, but I'm a big fan of balance and competition. I'd love to see a better balance between the Linux, Windows, OSX world in terms of market-share.

I use all three... regularly. So, none of it bothers me from an availability standpoint.

[kickasspodcast]

Ferg-

You have no reason to apologize.


Dcoolanduno@

Praising incompatibility now? What have we come to.


GOOD. I don't mind Apple leveraging their popularity against Windows and Microsoft if they want to. Microsoft does it all the time. There are HOW many Microsoft applications that aren't out for Mac or UNIX? Ummm, 96% of them.

This attitude seems a bit childish, "You do it all the time..." bla bla- wait until microsoft comes into the Audio Webcasting world and actually gets it right and at the same time manages not to offend so many amatures.

If 96% of applications will not work with your computer then you probably bought the wrong kind. Or one that is wrong for what applications you want to run.


Jack

[Patrick]

I honestly think they need, or SOMEONE needs, to make a cool script that verifies your feed and shows you what it will look like in the iTunes store. This is sorely needed because of the Apple delay.

I have something like this I was using for myself. I will clean it up a bit and I'm currently trying to get it to parse iTunes tags. I'll see if I can get a link up to it for you today.

[dcolanduno]

GOOD. I don't mind Apple leveraging their popularity against Windows and Microsoft if they want to. Microsoft does it all the time. There are HOW many Microsoft applications that aren't out for Mac or UNIX? Ummm, 96% of them.

This attitude seems a bit childish, "You do it all the time..." bla bla- wait until microsoft comes into the Audio Webcasting world and actually gets it right and at the same time manages not to offend so many amatures.

If 96% of applications will not work with your computer then you probably bought the wrong kind. Or one that is wrong for what applications you want to run.


Jack

Not at all, just pointing out that I have often recently seen many Windows users suddenly acting disenfranchised by the lack of some of the software being available on Windows that exists on the Mac platform.

Mac has always had a better compilation of software for audio and video production. Which is the reason why I have 4 of them in my home, I do audio/video work quite a bit. I have a high-end PC as well.

What I find childish is this sudden impression many people have that it is Apple, or UNIX/Linux folks that are purposely not making their tools available for the Windows users.

Sometimes they don't because they don't want to, sometimes they don't have to, sometimes they do it in an attempt to leverage their brand a bit.

It isn't childish to hope that a company can use whatever tools it has to leverage itself up into a market that is dominated as clearly as the computer OS market is. It would be childish to NOT do it and just play whipping boy to Microsoft, just because they are the 20-ton guerilla.

Like I said, they will probably release all this stuff for Windows anyway... neither Windows or Linux has enough foothold to do toe to toe combat with the Windows market.

[dcolanduno]

I honestly think they need, or SOMEONE needs, to make a cool script that verifies your feed and shows you what it will look like in the iTunes store. This is sorely needed because of the Apple delay.

I have something like this I was using for myself. I will clean it up a bit and I'm currently trying to get it to parse iTunes tags. I'll see if I can get a link up to it for you today.

That would be cool. :)

[obtuseangle]

I must admit that it hasn't been easy to figure out what type of RSS feed to supply to iTunes. Initially I submitted my original libsyn feed but now I've made sure that my libsyn feed is iTunes compatible. I had NO idea that you had to actually modify the feed and I'm sure many others didn't either. I'd be curious to see if submissions were rejected on the basis that they were not in the itunes format.

MK

So, I'm a Libsyn guy ... is that feed modification an easy process?

For someone with the tech knowledge of a monkey?

Please help.

Thanks,

Steve
The Obtuse Angle