RADIO PODCASTING IS NOT THE SAME AS PODCASTING!

[kickasspodcast]

Hello my fellow podcasting friends,

I have to make this post and it may be longer than what I wanted but it is a HUGE issue and I think it deserves some thought.

RADIO PODCASTING = A Radio show that is edited and distributed as a podcast through normal podcasting means.

Radio Podcasting must become a new term that is given to all Radio Podcasters. Further more, directories and ranking systems such as podcastalley, podcastpickle and the like desperately need to create a seperate listing and ranking system for Radio Podcasters. Podcasts like Free Talk Live and The Rachel Maddow need to be listed as Radio Podcasts and thus seperately ranked. Voters in turn should be able to vote for their favorite Podcast and the favorite Radio Podcast.

When you have people sitting in multi-million dollar sound booths with state of the art equipment, phone banks, and a slew of production staff actually calling themselves podcasters it is a total slam to those of us who do not have such extensive equipment and a paid staff to utilize. In fact I would even go so far as to say that they are not podcasters at all, simply radio personalities using podcasting as pure advertisement for their show. This last thought is just my opinion and I am not trying to say who is and who is not a podcaster. But there is increasing need to distinguish between Radio Podcasting and Podcasting. Anyone who actually sits in their house, or goes on location, struggles with their equipment and creates a podcast specifically for the sake of people to listen to on their MP3 player is truly podcasting and the resulting product is always incredibly more meaningful (to me at least) and more sincere in its content. Radio Podcasting is great and has its place but it is definitely time to start clearly seperating Radio Podcasters from Podcasters.

I will close by saying again that it obviously doesn't matter how good your equipment is in regards to weather or not your are Radio Podcasting...the only people I believe who are Radio Podcasting are working radio professionals (Who end up having their staff do most of the work) who broadcast a real radio show and then cut out the commercials and make it available as if it were actually a podcast. Yes it is a podcast, but it is a RADIO PODCAST. SO what do you think?

Check out our raw, sitting at home with no staff and no phonebank, honest to goodness kickass podcast.

We talk more about this issue on this episode of our Podcast
http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc6.mp3


P.S. It sure doesn't help that some Radio Podcasters like FREE TALK LIVE actually bash other podcasters like Dawn and Drew for being "low tech" or "gimmick".

And PSS- And I love the Rachel Maddow show but I can get that on my morning AM dial- so how is THAT a podcast again?

Send me your promos I WILL PLAY THEM-

Jack B.

[roadrageradio]

And I love the Rachel Maddow show but I can get that on my morning AM dial- so how is THAT a podcast again?

I dig Rachel too, but I can't get her on the air, so for me it IS a podcast, and I wouldn't be able to hear her without podcasting.

But Rush Limbaugh is on 600 stations and clears 99% of the US, so for him, "podcasting" is just another gimmick to entice people to pay for what they already get for free.

I think the distinction you're trying to make is "amateur" vs "professional", which should not carry with it an automatic ranking of quality. Think chefs, photographers, mountain climbers.

An amateur podcaster is simply someone who is not trying to earn a living by producing content that ends up as a podcast. A pro is somebody who is "in the business" and trying to make a living.

To a pro, podcasting is one of many choices for distributing content and reaching an audience. For most amateurs, it is the only choice.

Should there be different standards for pro vs. amateur? Might be a good idea.

Should amateurs who reach a certain level of audience or attention be encouraged to "turn pro"? Maybe so.

[Ian]

"kickasspodcast",

When you have people sitting in multi-million dollar sound booths with state of the art equipment, phone banks, and a slew of production staff actually calling themselves podcasters it is a total slam to those of us who do not have such extensive equipment and a paid staff to utilize.
Oops. There you go jumping to conclusions. My staff is not paid. I am not paid. My equipment may be decent, but it should be, considering I'm not in this to screw around. This is my life. Oh and "multi-million"? Try 10 grand.

In fact I would even go so far as to say that they are not podcasters at all, simply radio personalities using podcasting as pure advertisement for their show. This last thought is just my opinion and I am not trying to say who is and who is not a podcaster. But there is increasing need to distinguish between Radio Podcasting and Podcasting.
Why? Because there's all of ONE radio show in the top ten? And two in the top 20? What are you talking about?

Oh and as far as my motivations, the door swings both ways. We promote podcasting more than podcasting promotes us. That's okay, because we get new listeners, and podcasting does as well. Win-win.

Anyone who actually sits in their house, or goes on location, struggles with their equipment and creates a podcast specifically for the sake of people to listen to on their MP3 player is truly podcasting and the resulting product is always incredibly more meaningful (to me at least) and more sincere in its content.
Nice opinions. I do a show for ALL people to listen to. I think most podcasters would like as many people to listen to their show as possible. Just because my show is on a few transmitters means you have a bias against it.

Radio Podcasting is great and has its place
The back of the bus, right?

but it is definitely time to start clearly seperating Radio Podcasters from Podcasters.
Do we get separate water fountains, too?

I will close by saying again that it obviously doesn't matter how good your equipment is in regards to weather or not your are Radio Podcasting...the only people I believe who are Radio Podcasting are working radio professionals (Who end up having their staff do most of the work) who broadcast a real radio show and then cut out the commercials and make it available as if it were actually a podcast. Yes it is a podcast, but it is a RADIO PODCAST. SO what do you think?
I think you feel threatened by me. I've always encouraged other podcasters to keep at it. That's how I got where I am. You just want to shut me down. Oh, and I'm really the one who does the core of the work for Free Talk Live. My staff helps a little, but their roles are mostly co-hosting. FTL is my show. I do not have a multi-million dollar company backing me up, or giving me orders.

Check out our raw, sitting at home with no staff and no phonebank, honest to goodness kickass podcast.
I sit at home for my show too. So there.

P.S. It sure doesn't help that some Radio Podcasters like FREE TALK LIVE actually bash other podcasters like Dawn and Drew for being "low tech" or "gimmick".
That sir, has never happened. I don't care for their program, but I've never attacked them like that.

I resent your assumptions about me and my show. I've never attacked anyone over their quality level. Vox Monitor will tell you I pointed out an error in their audio, but it was only to help. Barefoot Radio and Red Bar Radio have asked for assistance and advice, and I've been happy to help.

Everyone has to start small. Everyone starts with the basics. Please stop attacking people like me just because we've been doing this longer than you. I don't attack you. I wish you the best of luck with your show. It's a long, hard road to success.


Send me your promos I WILL PLAY THEM-
Somehow I doubt that.

Best Regards,
Ian

[kickasspodcast]

And I love the Rachel Maddow show but I can get that on my morning AM dial- so how is THAT a podcast again?

I dig Rachel too, but I can't get her on the air, so for me it IS a podcast, and I wouldn't be able to hear her without podcasting.

But Rush Limbaugh is on 600 stations and clears 99% of the US, so for him, "podcasting" is just another gimmick to entice people to pay for what they already get for free.

I think the distinction you're trying to make is "amateur" vs "professional", which should not carry with it an automatic ranking of quality. Think chefs, photographers, mountain climbers.

An amateur podcaster is simply someone who is not trying to earn a living by producing content that ends up as a podcast. A pro is somebody who is "in the business" and trying to make a living.

To a pro, podcasting is one of many choices for distributing content and reaching an audience. For most amateurs, it is the only choice.

Should there be different standards for pro vs. amateur? Might be a good idea.

Should amateurs who reach a certain level of audience or attention be encouraged to "turn pro"? Maybe so.

You make some great points and I want to comment on them, but first let me thank you for being so nice and unusually respectful on this subject.
It should be important to say again that I am not saying that shows like Rachel Maddow are NOT podcasts. IT is definitely a podcast because you can use your podcast reciever to subscribe thus making it a podcast. When I sleep in , I often podcast Rachel Maddow- who would want to miss that kinda show. Many people say that Radio Podcasters (podspam- but I hate that term) are "not welcome" or are "not real podcasts" I could not disagree with this more. They are totally podcasts! But should there not be some distinction as a Radio Podcast- very much in the same way that we sort all podcasts by topic- would Radio Podcasting not be another good Catagory?

The reason I do not draw a distinction between "amature" and "pro" is because there are many Podcasters who are pro's. For me it is about the conception of the podcast. Adam Curry for example is a pro. He has been speaking and entertaining people for decades now and is certainly as professional as anyone who creates a podcast. His quality and his performance set him apart. But he doesn't have a radio job where he has to have a show on 5 or 6 days a week. He doesn't have a multi-million dollar studio that someone else paid for. He doesn't have a big phone bank and he isnt under the guidelines of both the FCC and other regulatory groups.

There is also the point that many, many people on the radio are in fact amatures in the grand radio community. It should be important to again say that I am not trying to be exclusive, I am only trying to further educate people and help unsuspecting listeners from not knowing weather or not they are listening to a unscripted, unregulated podcast or a government regulated radio show that someone decided to make available in podcast format. Thanks and I hope we can continue the discussion. Fosco- my buddy- just called and said FTL guys are already tearing me up- but I am replying at this point to the guy I quoted and hope this thread can stay peaceful. Thanks!

[bramley]

The back of the bus, right?

Do we get separate water fountains, too?

Yes. Definitely. Systematic racism over hundreds of years and two podcasting ranking lists are the same thing. Please, let's try to keep things in perspective here. It is possible to be persuasive without inflated rhetoric.

[kickasspodcast]

IAN! You sound so happy on your show? Why are you attacking me- How could I have made it more clear that I am not against people who Radio Podcast. I never said 'your kind is not welcome' I never said you are 'not really podcasting'. So why are you acting as if you are still responding to a thread that was locked?

"Oops. There you go jumping to conclusions. My staff is not paid. I am not paid. My equipment may be decent, but it should be, considering I'm not in this to screw around. This is my life. Oh and "multi-million"? Try 10 grand. "

I guess you thought I was ONLY talking about FTL- thats a bit egotistical.
You have pictures of you doing your show here:
http://freetalklive.com/images/WIBQ_Studio_03.jpg
and
http://freetalklive.com/images/studiopanorama.jpg

Now- if you expect us to believe that that is either your house OR that is only 10 grand worth of equipment- you are insulting us all. Why lie when you have this posted on your site? Is this NOT your studio? Why do you say it is? Which one is it?

Before I go on, systematically destroying you, I have to point out that it is really obvious in even your posting that you run a political talk show. You don't care about the truth and say what sounds good despite how easily your points can be rebuked. And remember- it was you who wrote the angry- you must be jealous post.....you set the tone Ian.
And let me also say that I am a recovering libertarian- I agree with you politically on soooo many things- I just know that people can do bad things some times and want some laws in place to prevent it.
ANYWAYS....
"Why? Because there's all of ONE radio show in the top ten? And two in the top 20? What are you talking about? "

I am talking in non-specific terms Ian. Podcasting is here to stay and soon there will be a million podcasts and I think by then it will be HUGELY important to tell people which ones are done by Radio Guys and which ones are done by people who podcast specifically for mp3 devices.

"Nice opinions. I do a show for ALL people to listen to. I think most podcasters would like as many people to listen to their show as possible. Just because my show is on a few transmitters means you have a bias against it"

That is just riotously funny. I am biased against you because YOUR show (I thought it was more than just YOU btw but..) is on a few transmitters. How do I get the feeling that if this were a radio forum you would be downplaying your podcasting and boosting the image of your radio show.It is obvious but I must point it out because you are so **** egotistical. You don't do a show for ALL people to listen to. Only for people who speak english! Why be so ethnocentric? Too much time in Flarda?

'Radio Podcasting is great and has its place'
"The back of the bus, right?"

Dude get that chip off your shoulder! And stop putting words into my post. Again I never said- in fact I went overboard to say that Radio Podcasters have their place- AND IN A FREE MARKET those who do a good job will suceed so WHAT are you afraid of?

' but it is definitely time to start clearly seperating Radio Podcasters from Podcasters.'
"Do we get separate water fountains, too?"
-seriously could you get anymore reactionary? Who ever suggested a lesser class of podcasters I don't know but it wasn't me so please stop mischaracterizing my sentiments. It is classical politcal doggery to mischaracterize what someone says as if people cannot read for themselves.


"I think you feel threatened by me. I've always encouraged other podcasters to keep at it. That's how I got where I am. You just want to shut me down. Oh, and I'm really the one who does the core of the work for Free Talk Live. My staff helps a little, but their roles are mostly co-hosting. FTL is my show. I do not have a multi-million dollar company backing me up, or giving me orders."
Really IAN? COULD YOU MAKE it ANY EASIER FOR ME?
When did I say I wanted to shut you down? Why do you assert that I said that? Why do you say "your staff" if they aren't paid. ITs all some big girl scout volunteer setup or what? When did I say you had a multi-million dollar company backing you up and WHY do you insist on continueing to make stuff up? Threatened? Well I play kickass podsafe music, talk about alot more than destroying the government and none of us are egomaniacs. You don't seem like this kind of guy on your show- but it must be scripted or something because having read your posts its clear the kinda narcissist you must be.

"I sit at home for my show too. So there."
Again...see the pictures of IANS house here.
http://freetalklive.com/images/WIBQ_Studio_03.jpg
and
http://freetalklive.com/images/studiopanorama.jpg

Now- if you expect us to believe that that is either your house OR that is only 10 grand worth of equipment- you are insulting us all. Why lie when you have this posted on your site? Is this NOT your studio? Why do you say it is? Which one is it?

'P.S. It sure doesn't help that some Radio Podcasters like FREE TALK LIVE actually bash other podcasters like Dawn and Drew for being "low tech" or "gimmick".'

"That sir, has never happened. I don't care for their program, but I've never attacked them like that."
IAN- How can you lie so much?!?! You never said that dawn and drew were a gimmick show? You never said they were gonna get divorced? You have archives going back so far do you really- after I have destroyed you with facts in this post- want me to find where you said that and then post it so all the forums will know you are a total liar. Why not defend your points of view instead of attacking other people. You called their show a gimmick show and said they were gonna get divorced.. I am sure more than just me remembers hearing it...why lie about it now when you know its recorded.


"I resent your assumptions about me and my show. I've never attacked anyone over their quality level. Vox Monitor will tell you I pointed out an error in their audio, but it was only to help.
Everyone has to start small. Everyone starts with the basics. Please stop attacking people like me just because we've been doing this longer than you. I don't attack you."

How do you know you have been doing this longer than me? I am not saying you aren't but HOW can you know that I wasnt shoutcasting in 2001? Podcasting didn't just start when ipods came out bud.

OK so this is Jack B. From Fosco & Jack's Kickass Podcast replying to IAN from FTL.

PS. How about u remind your listeners a few MORE times that your show is free, that everything is free... as if people would pay for your ****. Or do you compare yourselves to Oreilly and Rush and Hannity who all charge for their radio archives. Why do you say that you are basically the only free radio show. When all of Air America- them **** liberals- has free podcasts- and yes THEY Are podcasts (just radio podcasts)- archives infinitely and they don't have to remind people that their shows are free 100 times an hour.



Thanks

Jack B.
<tired>

[Ian]

IAN! You sound so happy on your show? Why are you attacking me- How could I have made it more clear that I am not against people who Radio Podcast. I never said 'your kind is not welcome' I never said you are 'not really podcasting'.
You did suggest segregation. Sure you said you weren't against us, but you want us to play in our own sandbox.

I guess you thought I was ONLY talking about FTL- thats a bit egotistical.
Well, we ARE the only radio show in the PCA Top Ten at the moment. I realize you were also including Ms. Maddow, but I have nothing to say about her, as I know nothing.

You have pictures of you doing your show here:
http://freetalklive.com/images/WIBQ_Studio_03.jpg
and
http://freetalklive.com/images/studiopanorama.jpg

Now- if you expect us to believe that that is either your house OR that is only 10 grand worth of equipment- you are insulting us all. Why lie when you have this posted on your site? Is this NOT your studio? Why do you say it is? Which one is it?
Again, FTL has a bit of a history. We've done this show from three different radio stations, and now do it from the home studio that I put together. (The 2nd pic)

Actually, the cost of the whole studio was 10k. 8k of the 10k was insanely expensive soundproofing and the custom desk. (Yes, I got hosed on the soundproofing.) Only about 2-3k is on actual equipment. Believe it or not.

And remember- it was you who wrote the angry- you must be jealous post.....you set the tone Ian.
You set the tone by lying about what we allegely "said" about DnD.

And let me also say that I am a recovering libertarian- I agree with you politically on soooo many things-
Good to know.

I am talking in non-specific terms Ian. Podcasting is here to stay and soon there will be a million podcasts and I think by then it will be HUGELY important to tell people which ones are done by Radio Guys and which ones are done by people who podcast specifically for mp3 devices.
A show is a show. I think you're wrong about the million number. But we're both just speculating.

It is obvious but I must point it out because you are so **** egotistical. You don't do a show for ALL people to listen to. Only for people who speak english! Why be so ethnocentric? Too much time in Flarda?
Touche`. All english speaking people, or people learning english, can listen to FTL.

AND IN A FREE MARKET those who do a good job will suceed so WHAT are you afraid of?
Not a **** thing. Just like some good conflict, and you've given it to me in spades! We are succeeding, and helping Podcast Alley succeed. Free Markets are also win-win. When FTL wins, Podcast Alley wins, and so does every other Podcast on the site.

Why do you say "your staff" if they aren't paid. ITs all some big girl scout volunteer setup or what? When did I say you had a multi-million dollar company backing you up and WHY do you insist on continueing to make stuff up?
You didn't specifically say that, but since we were the only Radio show on the top ten, I felt as though I should respond. ****, we're the only radio show who cares about podcasting! (I don't see Maddow posting here.) We realize the potential. Oh and "staff" really isn't an accurate word, I just used it because you did. I call them the FTL Crew. And, no they are not paid. They do it because they love to. (And they hope to get paid eventually.)

IAN- How can you lie so much?!?! You never said that dawn and drew were a gimmick show? You never said they were gonna get divorced?
No, and I think I asked what would happen if they did.

You called their show a gimmick show and said they were gonna get divorced.. I am sure more than just me remembers hearing it...why lie about it now when you know its recorded.
I'm glad you were listening. I'll eat my words if you can prove the gimmick comment. I've always said I don't care for their brand of show, but I've also at the same time wished them the best of luck, and have said that if they can profit from what they do, by all means. They are clearly the right show for a lot of people. Just not me.

How do you know you have been doing this longer than me? I am not saying you aren't but HOW can you know that I wasnt shoutcasting in 2001? Podcasting didn't just start when ipods came out bud.
Good point. I did jump to a conclusion. So, have I been doing this for longer? Even if you were doing shows in 2001, were you doing 15 hours a week like I was in 2002? I only ask since you called me on it.

PS. How about u remind your listeners a few MORE times that your show is free, that everything is free... as if people would pay for your ****. Or do you compare yourselves to Oreilly and Rush and Hannity who all charge for their radio archives.
Thanks, we will. There are people who would pay for the show, but that's not our business model.

Why do you say that you are basically the only free radio show. When all of Air America- them **** liberals- has free podcasts- and yes THEY Are podcasts (just radio podcasts)- archives infinitely and they don't have to remind people that their shows are free 100 times an hour.
We don't say we're the only show, but one of the few. Most syndicated shows charge for their archives. If Air America doesn't want to sell that fact, then they are alienating their potential internet audience, and reducing the odds that any of their radio listeners will ever come get their free archives.

[JesusGeek]

if someone is brave enough to wade into real broadcast radio in these dangerous days of clearchannel, more power to 'em.

a lot of people think that talk-oriented audio broadcasting started with podcasting. True, that's when it became available to everyone, but I don't see how bashing the people who got into it before ipodder came out helps anything.

let content be king.

[georgivs]

With all due respect, this "radio podcasting" vs "REAL podcasting" nonsense is the most bizarre load of tripe I've read in a long time.

Attempting to claim that the presumed higher economic status, material means and commercial motivation of radio content producers somehow makes their content "different" from content produced by "pure" podcasters, who are all presumed to have limited means and some sort of monopoly on activities free of "evil" corporate influences is just plain loopy - not to mention downright wrong and highly offensive.

The only thing that matters is content; who it is produced by and how it is produced is utterly irrelevant - as the audience will ultimately decide what is good and what is not; those "pure" podcasters who see their "big fish in a little pond" status threatened by the enlargement of the pond can either choose to improve the quality of their content - or take their holier-than-thou notions with them when they get out of the pond altogether.

George

[Craig]

Gentleman, a reminder from the forum rules:

* While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated.

* We reserve the right to ban anyone who willfully violates the forum rules.

This is specifically posted for kickasspodcast's benefit but after the last free-for-all it seems like others can benefit from it as well.

Craig
Moderator

[jimk]

First of all let me say that my comments are NOT personally directed at anyone, but at commecialcasters as a whole. When I say "you" it is the royal "you." :) I am striving to stay away from personalizing this discussion Craig. I understand and respect your rules and will bust my butt to follow it and still remain passionate about the discussion.


As for the topic...I wholeheartedly disagree with the commercialcaster position as stated in this thread. I believe that the individual, non-commercial and underground nature of podcasting ought to be respected, and it is VERY clear from the tone and content of you commercialcasters that you have NO respect for a subculture you had nothing to do with creating.

And THAT is the real issue here. This is about not just access to the audience, but respect for those who, in this particular subculture, came before you. Using commercial facilities to produce a professional broadcast (which you are already doing and is NOT for distribution under the podcast model) that no amateur could begin to compete with on a sound-quality level, stripping commercials, then playing johnny-come-lately AND trying to tell the originators and early adopters how it should be done is PRECISELY the reason you are getting the backlash that quite frankly, you deserve. Not because you want to participate, but because of the way you participate.

It's about the arrogance, the thousands of not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear and the fact that you aren't really trying to improve podcasting...you're just trying to find a new market for your commercial product. You see a new thing and you're trying to tell the people that created it how it should be done.

For those of you that have decades of continuous experience in the business...how would you like it if, after you busted you *** to get where you are, I just walked in and started dictating to you how to do your job? Would you react favorably? Having been in the booth (not in ten years, but radio doesn;t really change that mush as far as the personalities go) I know the answer already. You hate to be produced much less be told how things are going to be. All talent I have ever met hates it when someone, especially someone with less experience than them, comes in and starts dictating terms and trying to take over.

Try, just for a minute, to think about what it feels like to be a person bursting with creative ideas, 200 dollars worth of gear and knowing you can never crack the top 50 much less the top ten because commercial, professionally produced broadcasts are 1. gaming the system by cheating and faking votes, and 2. using their built-in audiences to drive the podcast subscriptions.

Do some of you remember what it was like your first week, month or year in the business?

Find that emotion, that feeling, then revisit this discussion and see if it gives you a fresh perspective.

Why not drop the antagonism and try to work *WITH* the scene instead of being arrogant and trying to *dominate* it?

I will bet money the reactions you get will be decidedly different if you take that simple advice.

[kickasspodcast]

First of all let me say that my comments are NOT personally directed at anyone, but at commecialcasters as a whole. When I say "you" it is the royal "you." :) I am striving to stay away from personalizing this discussion Craig. I understand and respect your rules and will bust my butt to follow it and still remain passionate about the discussion.


As for the topic...I wholeheartedly disagree with the commercialcaster position as stated in this thread. I believe that the individual, non-commercial and underground nature of podcasting ought to be respected, and it is VERY clear from the tone and content of you commercialcasters that you have NO respect for a subculture you had nothing to do with creating.

And THAT is the real issue here. This is about not just access to the audience, but respect for those who, in this particular subculture, came before you. Using commercial facilities to produce a professional broadcast (which you are already doing and is NOT for distribution under the podcast model) that no amateur could begin to compete with on a sound-quality level, stripping commercials, then playing johnny-come-lately AND trying to tell the originators and early adopters how it should be done is PRECISELY the reason you are getting the backlash that quite frankly, you deserve. Not because you want to participate, but because of the way you participate.

It's about the arrogance, the thousands of not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear and the fact that you aren't really trying to improve podcasting...you're just trying to find a new market for your commercial product. You see a new thing and you're trying to tell the people that created it how it should be done.

For those of you that have decades of continuous experience in the business...how would you like it if, after you busted you *** to get where you are, I just walked in and started dictating to you how to do your job? Would you react favorably? Having been in the booth (not in ten years, but radio doesn;t really change that mush as far as the personalities go) I know the answer already. You hate to be produced much less be told how things are going to be. All talent I have ever met hates it when someone, especially someone with less experience than them, comes in and starts dictating terms and trying to take over.

Try, just for a minute, to think about what it feels like to be a person bursting with creative ideas, 200 dollars worth of gear and knowing you can never crack the top 50 much less the top ten because commercial, professionally produced broadcasts are 1. gaming the system by cheating and faking votes, and 2. using their built-in audiences to drive the podcast subscriptions.

Do some of you remember what it was like your first week, month or year in the business?

Find that emotion, that feeling, then revisit this discussion and see if it gives you a fresh perspective.

Why not drop the antagonism and try to work *WITH* the scene instead of being arrogant and trying to *dominate* it?

I will bet money the reactions you get will be decidedly different if you take that simple advice.
FINALLY! Someone Get's where I am coming from! I knew there were realistic people out there who know whats up.

LET ME QUOTE THIS BABBLE"Attempting to claim that the presumed higher economic status, material means and commercial motivation of radio content producers somehow makes their content "different" from content produced by "pure" podcasters, who are all presumed to have limited means and some sort of monopoly on activities free of "evil" corporate influences is just plain loopy - not to mention downright wrong and highly offensive."

WHOEVER SAID ANY OF THIS? Why are you people quoting "pure" I never said "PURE PODCASTING" vs Radio PODCASTING!?!!? CAN YOU READ? I respect your right to have an informred or biased opinion but please stop putting words in my post! I said they are both podcasting from the start- but people ought to be able to easily know if one is some guy in a bar with some friends and a mic and the other is someone in a mega studio with equipment that would make letterman drool.

Thank you Jimk~ you of all people can see how reasonable and not extreme I started this thread. And then people must get reactionary and say that I am jealous and that I feel threatened then they start lying about what they said on the radio and calling me names etc.. bastardizing me.. caling me green as if I wasnt running a Spitfire BBS at the age of 11. Just know that I think most d.i.y.s. podcasters agree with the sentiment that there is a vast difference between you (FTL) and me.

Jack

[dcolanduno]

I still say that there is an easy way to differentiate between 'commercial/pro' podcasting, and 'free podcasts'. And, I don't STILL see why it is a bad thing to put them on seperate lists.

I don't have the 'exact' criterial but I would say if you answer 'yes' to any of the following you are 'commercial'.

1) Do you, or the people hosting or producing your podcast use Radio, TV, or Movies as your ONLY source of income.

2) Is this podcast directly funded by a media network; (Clear Channel, NBC, ABC, etc, etc)

3) Do you have a mandatory subscription fee?

Now, there is one question that if you answer yes to, you shouldn't be on ANY list, because NO current media, podcast or otherwise allows Infomercial style shows on their ranking lists.

1) Does your podcast have more than 25% commercials, advertising, promotion, or is the entire podcast dedicated to the promotion, sale, or endorcement of any product or service?

I think this easily rules people like Free Talk Live, and others that are just hard workin' podcast advocates to easily slip into the 'amature/free' rankings still.

I'd NEVER argue with being moved into the 'commercial' ranking if I was making a living off of podcasting. I mean, geez, a fun hobby as a living? Sign me up, I won't need to be on the top 10 here, I can sacrifice that, easy.

[Ian]

It's about the arrogance, the thousands of not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear and the fact that you aren't really trying to improve podcasting...you're just trying to find a new market for your commercial product. You see a new thing and you're trying to tell the people that created it how it should be done.

I really wish I knew who your post was directed at, Jimk because I'd like to know which Podcast on this site fits that description.

[georgivs]

LET ME QUOTE THIS BABBLE"Attempting to claim that the presumed higher economic status, material means and commercial motivation of radio content producers somehow makes their content "different" from content produced by "pure" podcasters, who are all presumed to have limited means and some sort of monopoly on activities free of "evil" corporate influences is just plain loopy - not to mention downright wrong and highly offensive."

WHOEVER SAID ANY OF THIS? Why are you people quoting "pure" I never said "PURE PODCASTING" vs Radio PODCASTING!?!!? CAN YOU READ? I respect your right to have an informred or biased opinion but please stop putting words in my post! I said they are both podcasting from the start- but people ought to be able to easily know if one is some guy in a bar with some friends and a mic and the other is someone in a mega studio with equipment that would make letterman drool.

Thank you Jimk~ you of all people can see how reasonable and not extreme I started this thread. And then people must get reactionary and say that I am jealous and that I feel threatened then they start lying about what they said on the radio and calling me names etc.. bastardizing me.. caling me green as if I wasnt running a Spitfire BBS at the age of 11. Just know that I think most d.i.y.s. podcasters agree with the sentiment that there is a vast difference between you (FTL) and me.

Jack

I'm afraid that if you don't understand your own central hypothesis, or grasp the salient details of the opposing viewpoint, nobody is going to see much point in attempting to conduct a reasoned debate with you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: content is content is content.

Podcasting simply means there is more content, and that it can be distributed more readily.

Anyone who thinks that being a home-based content creator makes them unique, special or otherwise "different" from those who produce content via more sophisticated means is deluding themselves and disrespecting the "podcasting community" they claim to hold in such high regard.

George

[Ian]

I agree George, I see that group of people as being highly arrogant. These are people that want their "community" to look a certain way, and will do what it takes to mold it in that fashion. Thank goodness they aren't in charge of this site.

[kickasspodcast]

@ Moderator, OK I am sorry but you know as well as I know thats this must be a thread worth keeping open considering the popularity of the subject. And IAN my FELLOW PODCASTER you as a libertarian friend must agree that any regulation of this forum is against human nature...but anyways.

Look IAN you have made me embark on a new goal. Its finding what show in the month of APRIL or MAY where you said and I paraphrase (@dawn &drew)"that is a gimmick show...they are going to get divorced...please vote for us.." So I will find and post it and it will probably be a pathetic mute point by the time I get done listening to FTL for 100 hours...but its ok..

@George
Content is Content?

OK - FTL is a political talk show that fits the mold of any other political talk show in America. Only these guys don't seem to ever use facts to back up their point of view. Their opinions are often agreeable to me but it doesn't mean they are comparable to myself in the realms of podcasting. Number 1 I think they have a show that is weak because they have to go to break everytime there is a commercial and then they play the same boring bumper music. Number 2... they pretend to be Libertarians but they have a HUGE FOX NEWS banner on their website....as well as the fact that as I said before they hardly ever cite any factual sources and they say their website and podcast is free like 1000 times an hour. Anyone who has ever listened to their show knows that IAN says the show is free, free, free 1000 times a minute.. and Since someone brought up Amature vs. Pro in regards to equating Podcasting to Radio Podcasting it is clear hearing Ian on what is I know a Radio show that is later podcasted...that he of all people is an Amature on the Radio or Otherwise. HE slanders and is defensive beyond all reason. So God bless the US for letting us all have our opinions but FTL and the Rest the Radio Podcasters will eventually have to take pride in what they actually are instead of defending it.

Jack B.
From the http://kickasspodcast.com/kapc6.mp3 <--- best show yet!

Thanks again for your sanity -Jimk

[dcolanduno]

I agree George, I see that group of people as being highly arrogant. These are people that want their "community" to look a certain way, and will do what it takes to mold it in that fashion.

I think you are way off the mark here. That is utopian attitude, as if it ISN'T the case that ALL other media forms and shapes their 'community'. Networks all play footise making sure the status quo' is kept reletively the same. To think that it is 'arrogant' to want to leverage the popularity and success of podcasting to the 'community' that has been here and is a DIFFERENT voice from the already massively successful... is not arrogant.

It is smart.

I think at this point, if something isn't done, I'd think the people that run this site have the business saavy of a wet rag. Or, they would just rather sadly believe that allowing a steamrolling of this current community will somehow line their pockets or bolster their interest.

Well, they could be correct, that it might somehow be to their interest to just sit back and do nothing, and allow big-media and the current gatekeepers to gobble up podcasting, without too much benefit to the folks that PUT the people in charge of this site in the position they are in now.

Hey, then again, 99% of those that are propped into a position like that capitulate to the allure of those Clear Channel types as well.

So, why do you *WANT* small, indy voices to be squashed, yet again, by the tidal wave of controlling, manipulative media?

I guess, in all things, big business and huge stacks of cash are always right!

Those guys, the big-media ones we are talking about 'shutting out'... They created rules, regulations, and impossible hurdles in their media outlets. The small concepts we are asking for, seperation of commercial vs. indipendant podcasts in top-10 lists, etc. are not even a speck on the landscape of manipulative crap those huge media orgs use to keep people like YOU off the air in more cities.

I can't believe, of all people, you would side against laying down a system to leverage the opportunity to enhance visiblility of media producers outside the control of those folks.

Utopia doesn't exisit... You have to play in the real world sometimes.

[georgivs]

Content IS content.

Whether a 30-minute mp3 happens to be filled with the tedious daily ravings of a bored teenage stoner from Wagga Wagga, ads to watch Foxtel, or strident exhortations to dance the naked conga with a tribe of Congolese leper-dwarves in the caldera of Anak Krakatau is beside the point.

If people like it they'll listen or download.

If they don't they won't.

George

[jimk]

It's about the arrogance, the thousands of not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear and the fact that you aren't really trying to improve podcasting...you're just trying to find a new market for your commercial product. You see a new thing and you're trying to tell the people that created it how it should be done.

I really wish I knew who your post was directed at, Jimk because I'd like to know which Podcast on this site fits that description.

Any professionally broadcast radio show that is simply edited and uploaded. I don't care if you work in a single-station tiny place or a Clear Channel state-of-the-art studio. You and I BOTH know the boards, mics, processing etc. costs more than almost any DIY podcaster can afford.

Don't try to sidetrack the point, however.

It's about respect. It's about professionals trying to usurp something they did not create, something that was borne of frustration with the very professionals who are now trying to weasel their way in without being decent and respectful about it.

I made a long, lengthy argument with many valid points and an emotional appeal or two. If you could be so kind...try addressing something other than what you want to see as a personal attack, OK? It's not about you personally, it's about the scene.

[Ian]

And IAN my FELLOW PODCASTER you as a libertarian friend must agree that any regulation of this forum is against human nature...but anyways.
This forum is private property. The owners and caretakers may moderate it in any fashion they deem appropriate.

Look IAN you have made me embark on a new goal. Its finding what show in the month of APRIL or MAY where you said and I paraphrase (@dawn &drew)"that is a gimmick show...they are going to get divorced...please vote for us.." So I will find and post it and it will probably be a pathetic mute point by the time I get done listening to FTL for 100 hours...but its ok..
Here, I'll do you a favor, even though you've been a meany butt. http://podscope.com - dig away!

Number 1 I think they have a show that is weak because they have to go to break everytime there is a commercial and then they play the same boring bumper music.
Whoa. That's a really scathing critique. You mean, as a radio show, we actually have to break for commercials? Imagine that!

Number 2... they pretend to be Libertarians but they have a HUGE FOX NEWS banner on their website....
You are purposefully misportraying us. Is this Michael Savage? We don't have a "FOX NEWS banner". We have a link to a 2:30 minute report on our show by a local FOX affiliate, WTVT FOX 13. Their logo doesn't even say "FOX NEWS".

as well as the fact that as I said before they hardly ever cite any factual sources
This is entertainment, not a research report. Go do your own homework.

and they say their website and podcast is free like 1000 times an hour. Anyone who has ever listened to their show knows that IAN says the show is free, free, free 1000 times a minute..
We talk about the site when we come back from breaks, and of course we mention it's free. Most syndicated shows' sites are not. It clearly doesn't bother you that much, as you're obviously a listener. Anyone who's been in radio for a little while knows that frequency is key. Sorry, but to get retention from listeners, information must be repeated.

and Since someone brought up Amature vs. Pro in regards to equating Podcasting to Radio Podcasting it is clear hearing Ian on what is I know a Radio show that is later podcasted...that he of all people is an Amature on the Radio or Otherwise. HE slanders and is defensive beyond all reason. So God bless the US for letting us all have our opinions but FTL and the Rest the Radio Podcasters will eventually have to take pride in what they actually are instead of defending it.
You've gotten to the point of babbling. Are you drunk? Technically, you're right, I'm an Amateur, as I don't get paid. That said, there are plenty of Amateurs who are more talented than their "professional" counterparts.

Oh, and slander? If anyone's been slandering, it's been you with all of your misinformation. But keep at it, I quite enjoy the attention.

Thanks!
Ian

[jimk]

I agree George, I see that group of people as being highly arrogant. These are people that want their "community" to look a certain way, and will do what it takes to mold it in that fashion. Thank goodness they aren't in charge of this site.

They have that right. THEY CREATED IT. If you think self-protection is arrogant, then I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you.

Commercialization and homogenization eventually ruins everything. I for one don't blame podcasters for wanting to stave it off as long as possible.

If people like it they'll listen or download.

If they don't they won't.

If you believe that, then you don't know people, media or marketing. The masses, no matter how smart the audience is, will only see what is in front of them. If the top ten, or 25, or 50 is all commercialcasting, professional broadcasters usurping the market by simply recording their commercial product and editing out commercials,, that is all most people will see, and the good, decent and talented grass roots people that created this subculture will, as has happend so many times in so many movements before, get pushed aside for the slicksters and the marketing wizkids.

This is literally common knowledge. It happens all the time in every medium that comes along. People who care about the scene and are feleing creative just want a chance to be heard. They ant to delay the inevitable to that maybe, just maybe, we can have something nice and fun and spam/corporate free for one frigging minute already.

If you have a problem with THAT...well, I honestly don't know what to say to you.

[dcolanduno]

It's about respect. It's about professionals trying to usurp something they did not create, something that was borne of frustration with the very professionals who are now trying to weasel their way in without being decent and respectful about it.

I think it is more about the fact that is has been established that the 'professionals' will have no respect. And rely on folks that somehow believe that 'content is content'. Yea, and Brittney Spears can write a song, and sing without a ton of Audio Engineering. Oh, and... Paris Hilton... she's got talent.

Yea, it is about the fact that we know they have NO respect.

Look, these are the same people funding political action groups to lobby for the FCC to extend to Satellite and Cable, because they believe 'content is content'. Yea, right.

Yup, those guys, they rely on people believeing that the world is some utopia where 'content is content', so they can swoop in and laugh.

I *KNOW* someone that is an exec in one of those 'Clear Channel' types. He actually was laughing about the fact that in a meeting, an officer asked about what types of 'regulations' they might want to persue to make sure podcasting is 'under control'.

Don't think for a second that this isn't some big bug to squash for those guys. And leaving our door open for them to do it, because you have a shallow understanding of how media is fed to the public, or... you have a utopian concept of the 'free market', or you think in some rediculous way that creating some SIMPLE rules to help the indy voice that made podcasting what is is... will somehow benefit 'us all'...

Just baffles me beyond any sane comprehension.

[Ian]

I made a long, lengthy argument with many valid points and an emotional appeal or two. If you could be so kind...try addressing something other than what you want to see as a personal attack, OK? It's not about you personally, it's about the scene.

But I AM the scene. Oh and Rachael Maddow. We're the "invaders".

Where are all the big bad broadcasters? You guys are saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it's not! You have nothing to point to beyond pure paranoia.

[dcolanduno]

I'm saying it's not! You have nothing to point to beyond pure paranoia.

I'm sure someone said that about;

Local Access Television

Early Local Radio

The Music Industry

The Movie Industry

Do I have to go on...

Even if it WAS 'paranoia'... then let it be. That is like saying it was paranoid for the founding fathers to put in the Bill of Rights... I mean, no one was trying to take away any of that stuff RIGHT THAT SECOND.

They used common sense to realize it has happened in the past, it will happen again, most likely...

And, for the record, if anyone would address common sense solutions to this stuff. You would realize that all of my suggestions for what designates a commercial podcast from a free one, would keep a show like FTL *IN* the loop.

Maddow, she's a part of Air America... sorry, but I don't veiw that as anything but professional.

[Ian]

They have that right. THEY CREATED IT. If you think self-protection is arrogant, then I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you.
The Ferf created this website. "THEY" participated in it. I trust that the Ferf will do the right thing for himself and this site. He's done a great job so far.

The podcast world is not crumbling because Rush is podcasting now. The independants, (of which we are one), have not been crushed out. Nor will they.

The only way to get out of this game is to quit. As long as you're producing content and promoting, you'll have listeners. The top ten is irrelevant to most podcasters, anyway.

Again, this is all much ado about paranoid speculation. I thought the conspiracy theorists were bad that call my show! Do do do do dododo!

ooooohhh weeeee oooooh!

[jimk]

I made a long, lengthy argument with many valid points and an emotional appeal or two. If you could be so kind...try addressing something other than what you want to see as a personal attack, OK? It's not about you personally, it's about the scene.

But I AM the scene. Oh and Rachael Maddow. We're the "invaders".

Where are all the big bad broadcasters? You guys are saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it's not! You have nothing to point to beyond pure paranoia.

Since you refuse to stop making this about you personally and you refuse to address the quite lengthy post I made, I'm no longer responding to anything you have to say.

If you should choose to engage me in civil conversation and actually address the issues I raised, please let me know and I'd be glad to continue this discussion with you. I'm not going to be baited into a flame war because you can't stop making it solely about *you*.

[dcolanduno]

Again, this is all much ado about paranoid speculation. I thought the conspiracy theorists were bad that call my show! Do do do do dododo!

ooooohhh weeeee oooooh!

Umm,

I thought you were above the desperate, last ditch tactic of trying to make your opponents look like fools with an attempt at a humorous comparison to something absurd.

I hope that anyone that has actually read the past few threads, or taken the time to see the reality of the situation, will reconize that for what it is.

[ExtraLife]

To the original poster...what the crap did you expect?

[Ian]

I'm sure someone said that about;

Local Access Television

Early Local Radio

The Music Industry

The Movie Industry

Do I have to go on...
Has Local Access been dominated by huge corporations? **** no. There's not much money to be made there. There is also not much to be made here in podcasting. That's the nature of a podcast. The other examples are better, but there are still plenty of amateur musicians, filmmakers, and radio rats.

Even if it WAS 'paranoia'... then let it be. That is like saying it was paranoid for the founding fathers to put in the Bill of Rights... I mean, no one was trying to take away any of that stuff RIGHT THAT SECOND.
Heh. Not a good example. The Bill of Rights has only served to delay the tyranny a little while.

And, for the record, if anyone would address common sense solutions to this stuff. You would realize that all of my suggestions for what designates a commercial podcast from a free one, would keep a show like FTL *IN* the loop.
I understand that, and if I hadn't acknowledged that, please allow me to thank you for being so inclusive. That said, I'm primarily responding to those people who would like to see my show excised from the site or segregated. I'm not concerned in the least that any of you guys' suggestions will come to fruition. I'm just here to have fun! Whee!

Maddow, she's a part of Air America... sorry, but I don't veiw that as anything but professional.
Funny, I view Air America as pathetic. Like Rush, but on the left. :lol:

[Ian]

Since you refuse to stop making this about you personally and you refuse to address the quite lengthy post I made, I'm no longer responding to anything you have to say.
Well, was the post about FTL, or not? If it wasn't then I have nothing to say. If it was, I'll go to it. I sure hope it wasn't, cause if so, you've got some 'splainin to do! :roll:

[Hittman]

Where are all the big bad broadcasters? You guys are saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it's not! You have nothing to point to beyond pure paranoia.

OK Ian, we get it. The idea of a separate list makes you angry and scared. Your avatar is perfect. And you are completely incapable of looking even six months into the future. Those of us with any sense of history know what Big Media does to the little guys. You refuse to acknowledge that, endlessly referring to the way things are at this very moment, ignoring what is quite obvious to most of the rest of us.

Richard Thompson and John Pryne are to of the best songwriters, ever. But they are hardly household names. No one looking a the Billboard top 100 will ever find them, or even be aware that they exist. Big Media, given the chance, will do the exact same thing to podcasting. The rest of us will be like a gr*****pper standing on a railroad track, yelling at the approaching train. "Stop! Stop! I have something worthwhile to offer! Don't . . . SPLAT." Those of us blessed with foresight can see it coming, and are suggesting something very simple, and very fair, to help get the gr*****pper off the track before it's too late.

And the sad part, Ian, is that you are completely unaware that you're one of the gr*****ppers.

[dcolanduno]

I'm not concerned in the least that any of you guys' suggestions will come to fruition. I'm just here to have fun! Whee!

Ian, I love your show, I listen, but I am going to say something about that comment, because you might have been serious there.

That might be the problem here. A LOT of people here in the podcasting world ARE having 'fun' at creating their shows, but at the same time take seriously the impact that this new form of free indy voice has had, and CAN have moving forward.

It isn't 'fun' to those folks that DON'T have the luxury of being on actual radio stations at the end of the day when their only form of outlet is smothered.

Maybe not smothered...

Maybe better yet, a GOLDEN opportunity to make use of the upcoming wave is lost.

It is very rare that an opportunity comes along for small voices and content to be realized by the seething masses, and we have one of those opportunites coming right now...

I see the wave, it's building to a crest, RIGHT NOW... see it out there?

Why, oh why, is it so bad for us to potentially setup those indy voices, those that worked and had fun to make this thing something that is on the tip of the toungue of CEO's, Newspapers, and media outlets across the world happen, successful?

With something so simple as s couple rules and a slant in the direction of the little guy.

It might not work, I agree... it might be paranoid... but if it is paranoia, it means that podcasting is not going to be that big, and the small rules wouldn't matter anyway.

I really think that shows like yours, those that work for free and have a dissenting voice remain one of those obviously indy voices. But, there are tons of us that don't go 'weee' when we think of this whole experience becoming a splat on the windsheild of Clear Channel and Murdock.

[Ian]

I totally understand your fear, Derek. However, please explain how Clear Channel is a threat, while considering the FACTS about how they are approaching podcasting.

The PCA system excludes for-pay podcasts, so we're "safe" for now.

[Ian]

It isn't 'fun' to those folks that DON'T have the luxury of being on actual radio stations at the end of the day when their only form of outlet is smothered.

Luxury? If we had 400 affiliates, I might consider that a luxury. As is, we have 5. There's no luxury here. Any day, my network could pull the plug on my show, and then we'd have 0 affiliates. Making this show work in the radio world is a constant struggle, despite the great support we get from listeners like you.

Man, I tell you I only wish I had a modicum of luxury, but I don't.

Might as well have fun at it!

Oh and hittman. Life as a gr*****pper is tough, but if we jump high enough, and in the right direction, we might just survive the train long enough to encounter the little kid with the magnifying glass. 8)

[dcolanduno]

I totally understand your fear, Derek. However, please explain how Clear Channel is a threat, while considering the FACTS about how they are approaching podcasting.

Because, those 'facts' are only the facts 'for now'. You are only referencing their CURRENT tactics. As if they aren't scheming in the back-room with a next wave of stuff to do. You have only seen the beginning of their use of podcasting. Yes, MAYBE, they will stop where they are. But, I seriously doubt it, I've been on the fringe of high level corporate marketing for too long to believe that.

I can sit here and think of 10-20 ways for them to next leverage free podcasting. And I can also do the same for TV and movies. It is a little sad to believe that since it is not happening NOW it's not happening. The sucker is a big *** boat. Have you ever read a book on how you have to steer a cruise ship? If you are on one, and close your eyes, you'd never know you were turning. The planning is insane... but once you put that much steel in motion... forget it.

Man, I tell you I only wish I had a modicum of luxury, but I don't.

Working for ANY over-the-air broadcast station is never a luxury. Hell, look at Stern, even he had to deal with a ration of crap the size of the Great Wall.

Oh and hittman. Life as a gr*****pper is tough, but if we jump high enough, and in the right direction, we might just survive the train long enough to encounter the little kid with the magnifying glass.

Yea, but since this time the gr*****pper can catch a ride, or change the tracks... Why shouldn't he? Seriously? It might not work, but what if it does? Isn't that better than doing NOTHING?

Seriously, what is there to lose by giving a boost to the little gr*****ppers right now?

Who does it hurt?

It might take a few coals out of that trains firebox? Or possibly put the gr*****pper in control of a few of the traincars?

Doing NOTHING will, yes, get us burned by that magnifing glass, or squash us across the tracks.

Yes, it is like you said about the Bill of Rights... it has fallen apart a little at the seams...

BUT does that mean you wouldn't have attempted to put it in there?

[kickasspodcast]

To the original poster...what the crap did you expect?
I dunno... I guess I just didnt really know that people were talking about Radio Podcasting and that people were so **** mad about stuff. FTL is a good show and that is all that really matters. I think it is obvious by their reaction that they are the ones who feel threatened because why else would they fight so hard not to be distinguished as professionals in radio? What is the problem with calling something as it is? If you actually HAVE to go to a commercial break then that is TOTALLY not the same as me and Fosco recording with our $8 dollar labtec. So why are you saying we want to "SHUT YOU DOWN"...who has to do commercials during their podcast? That doesnt seem to be at all the same as a sound-seeing tour, podcast from a bar with your friends, podcast from your house with your iRiver.. Frankly I just don't think you get it.. and for a BIG TIME FTL guy you really spend WAY too **** much time on the forums.. I am a small timer with jack **** to do.. and you've been posting since 4:15pm today.. give it up dude... we all know these 2 things:

1: yes ftl is cool
2: yes ftl is radio podcasting (not podspamming)

before I finish this let me and Fosco cut to our sell out commercials ok? Buy some **** at Wal-mart























BUY **** AT WAL-MART















































See? See the difference in podcasting and radio-podcasting...time to swallow the bullets now folks.... If you wanna pretend your the same as us down-home folks then fine.. but you are only fooling yourself.

Jack B.

[tocard]

It isn't 'fun' to those folks that DON'T have the luxury of being on actual radio stations at the end of the day when their only form of outlet is smothered.

Maybe not smothered...


Everyone has that Luxury... Ian didn't get his job through nepotism... he got it through hard work and about 500 BILLION phone calls... Hell, if you wanted to - you could PAY to be on a brokered station, and sell ads to cover your costs... (I know... becuase *I* did that for a while... I made ZERO cash, but... we broke even, and I was on a local radio station.


Maybe better yet, a GOLDEN opportunity to make use of the upcoming wave is lost.

It is very rare that an opportunity comes along for small voices and content to be realized by the seething masses, and we have one of those opportunites coming right now...

I see the wave, it's building to a crest, RIGHT NOW... see it out there?


Yes Dude... That wave.. is listeners, money, and advertisers...
When that wave hits... you can't STOP IT... That's ridiculous... If you stop to STOP it... it is going to just wash over you and flow around you.
I see it as more of a river than a wave... it's a trickle now... but when it comes flowing in, it won't be stopped... You can either learn to paddle down the river... or try to dam it up, and just watch it flow around you to other people.

Some of you think you are taking the high ground... and you are... you are getting left high and dry.


Why, oh why, is it so bad for us to potentially setup those indy voices, those that worked and had fun to make this thing something that is on the tip of the toungue of CEO's, Newspapers, and media outlets across the world happen, successful?

With something so simple as s couple rules and a slant in the direction of the little guy.


That's NOT what you are doing. These little guys... are unwilling to make money, or to grow. That's the problem. Any of the river that gets shunted into them, is just going to wash over them, or flow around them.
They will not grow or change... the other smarter podcasters will ride the river downstream... (especially those that *GASP* ride the MAINSTREAM (once that MAINSTREAM for podcasting becomes defined by the advertisers who are willing to pay) Podcasts that try to make money from ads, and take that and buy better equipment, and do more shows, and IMPROVE their shows to make MORE money becuase they LOVE what they do... will succeed... Sure, maybe some of these other podcasters love what they do, but.. becuase they are willing to learn to make a boat and ride the river... they will drown - eventually.


It might not work, I agree... it might be paranoid... but if it is paranoia, it means that podcasting is not going to be that big, and the small rules wouldn't matter anyway.

I really think that shows like yours, those that work for free and have a dissenting voice remain one of those obviously indy voices. But, there are tons of us that don't go 'weee' when we think of this whole experience becoming a splat on the windsheild of Clear Channel and Murdock.

I'm curious... If ClearChannel offered YOU and Sloopy $50,000 a year a peice + 20% of your ad revenues... What would you say?

You honestly believe that you should be put into a separate sandbox becuase you succeeded...

Especially a separate sandbox that somehow is supposed to be geared towards making sure you get LESS attention and less listeners now?

You'd want to be lumped in with, and labeled a SPAMcast - just becuase your content was good enough to be picked up and paid for?

How does that work exactly?

[tocard]

oh and some of the accusations about FTL in this thread have been HILARIOUS...

Ian you should take a picture out the DOOR of the studio.. so they can see your kitchen / living room combo...

or better yet... pull one of those awful peices of carved foam (hahaha he really did get hosed on that glorfied egg crate) halfway off the wall like it gets becuase it's poorly attached and comes off everytime you brush buy it becuase the room is so small there is barely enough room to get around the desk...

If anyone wants help creating a REALLY good sounding studio for under $1000 I will tell you what equipment to get. e-mail me if you'd like help


I have done extensive research as I have been in both broadcast radio as well as net radio since 1999. I know lots and lots of cheap solutions to create an AMAZING sound on a very low budget. It definitely doesn't take 10g's to make a show that NO ONE would be able to distinguish from professional when it's been compressed to a 64kb/s or 128kb/s mp3.


You can get some inexpensive compressor/limiters and some decent mics (the compressor is what gives that PRO sound)

and there are VARIOUS phone solutions (I reccomend vonage softphone) but I'm sure there are other options...


It's really not as expensive as you might think to sound REALLY REALLY good.

hahaha Ian uses winamp to play his sound effects just like any other podcast.

[Ian]

BUT does that mean you wouldn't have attempted to put it in there?
A constitutional convention? Sounds like too much bureaucracy. I probably wouldn't have been near it. :lol:

I was there when the local LP wrote it's bylaws. Talk about shitty.

[Ian]

I think it is obvious by their reaction that they are the ones who feel threatened because why else would they fight so hard not to be distinguished as professionals in radio?
We make it clear in our show description that we're a syndicated radio show. I just think the 2 category idea is bad for podcasting as a whole. Let us continue to mix in with everyone else. Now, it's a challenge to be #1. If we were under your system, we'd easily be #1. I just like a good challenge.

What is the problem with calling something as it is? If you actually HAVE to go to a commercial break then that is TOTALLY not the same as me and Fosco recording with our $8 dollar labtec. So why are you saying we want to "SHUT YOU DOWN"...who has to do commercials during their podcast? That doesnt seem to be at all the same as a sound-seeing tour, podcast from a bar with your friends, podcast from your house with your iRiver..
Um, it totally is the same. We're all doing shows. How and where is immaterial.

Frankly I just don't think you get it.. and for a BIG TIME FTL guy you really spend WAY too **** much time on the forums.. I am a small timer with jack **** to do.. and you've been posting since 4:15pm today.. give it up dude...
You're a silly, silly man. Now you're critiquing me for spending too much time in the Podcast world! Some people are never satisfied. :roll:

we all know these 2 things:

1: yes ftl is cool
2: yes ftl is radio podcasting (not podspamming)

before I finish this let me and Fosco cut to our sell out commercials ok? Buy some **** at Wal-mart

Wow, man. Seriously, is this Michael Savage? Janine Garofalo?

See? See the difference in podcasting and radio-podcasting...time to swallow the bullets now folks.... If you wanna pretend your the same as us down-home folks then fine.. but you are only fooling yourself.
Now you're "down-home folks"? Why do you insist there's some class difference between us? I'm just as regular as any of you, I've just been at this longer and more seriously than you.

Get over it. And go do your show. Then do it again, over and over if you want to still be in this game in a year.

[Ian]

Everyone has that Luxury... Ian didn't get his job through nepotism... he got it through hard work and about 500 BILLION phone calls... Hell, if you wanted to - you could PAY to be on a brokered station, and sell ads to cover your costs...
Some here may consider that "selling out to the man". Not to mention that transmitters are eeeevil! :twisted:

[vox_monitor]

I've listened, as far as I know, to 2 "radio podcasts," FTL and Bad Cop No Donut. I loved them both.

And I have to say neither did anything fundamentally different than a "non-radio podcast." They are just guys talking about stuff. In the case of FTL, they have mad skills. They speak really fluidly, are funny, insightful, and are pro-liberty.

That, and only that, is why they are successful.

Bad Cop No Donut is on public radio in canada, I think. I loved it just cause I hate cops. It's pretty dry really, but it's a very important public service.

I don't see it anywhere near the top ten.

These casts have no unfair advantage. If they're on the radio, it's because they're good and they've earned it.

FTL - I don't like your logo. It's too aggressive. FYI, and IMHO.

eric

[speljamr]

And PSS- And I love the Rachel Maddow show but I can get that on my morning AM dial- so how is THAT a podcast again?

Its a podcast the minute it comes down to my computer through an RSS feed. I could care less about how it was produced or if it also plays on FM/AM. As long as I can listen to it at my leisure.

This is really not a big deal...

[georgivs]

Its a podcast the minute it comes down to my computer through an RSS feed. I could care less about how it was produced or if it also plays on FM/AM. As long as I can listen to it at my leisure. This is really not a big deal...

Bingo! Nice to see someone who gets it.

George

[Barefoot Radio.com]

I just want to say that it's true Ian's been really supportive of my questions and asking for advice.

I've NEVER heard him discourage people. :D

I still say that it's silly for so many podcasters to feel threatened by other podcasters. If you feel threatened, it's probably because you're insecure.

Back to my 150 Million dollar studio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LET THE BEST RULE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Charles]

And PSS- And I love the Rachel Maddow show but I can get that on my morning AM dial- so how is THAT a podcast again?

Its a podcast the minute it comes down to my computer through an RSS feed. I could care less about how it was produced or if it also plays on FM/AM. As long as I can listen to it at my leisure.

This is really not a big deal...


You got it speljamr.

There is no reason to be complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.

Micro(1 to 3 stations), very small and small radio programs that are also Podcasts have to do ton of struggling just to exist yet a very few want to also segregate, discriminate and overly catagorize them here.

If you ever have a problem will be when large commercial radio programs that are on hundreds of stations are allowed to be voted on here.

A much much more milder warning would have been much more prudent rather than an ALL CAPS Offbase Rhetorical Diatribe against All radio programs that also definitely are Podcasts.

There is no problem there. It is much ado about nothing.

-

However everyone does agree that there is a Big Problem with a bunch of SPAMCASTS that are only ADS for a Sleazy MLM Pyramid Scam. They should never be on this board and allowed to game/cheat to stuff the ballot.

What people also did support was that the Top 10 list be adjusted to the Top 25 and that the Top 50 list be adjusted to the Top 100 list. That makes a lot of sense as the number of podcasts here approaches 4000.

[kickasspodcast]

Can everyone hear read? I am not so sure about that considering the ammount of people chiming in as if this were some old thread that got locked and you all know what I am talking about because its the same people ruining my thread. I never threatened or attacked anyone, I never said something wasn't podcasting. I never called it podspam. I never said it wasn't 'pure'. I never said that I wanted to "shut you down". So how the heck did so many people jump so far as to assert any of this.

Ian I have listened to your show enough to know that facts and actual statistics mean nothing to you as a libertarian because those kinda messy details get in the way of your capitalist agenda. I wasn't going to attack anyone personally but after all this slander and mischaracterizing I must reply.

Ian your show sucks.. I redact when I said it was cool its not. IT is just like any other struggling local political talk show in the US. Only you are UBER dorks who just decided to podcast your **** and and pretend your doing the same as the rest of us. All you talk about on your show is the same old political bickering and crap. I cannot tell you how many times I have listended to your show and gotten the feeling you have no idea of what you are talking about. The whole thing is a giant advertisement for the FREE STATE PROJECT. And you do have to break for commercials...see IAN you HAVE TO- so don't go saying there is no difference in HAVING to do something and WANTING TO. Jimk got it dead on but I have to after your personal attacks lash out at the pure boredom that is your show. 3 Dorky dudes in florida bitching about everything. You disrespect so much of what is noble about our country that you really must be living in the clouds.

And frankly I am sick of you and the people who defend you trying to act as though the entire podcasting community is a buncha paranoid dumbasses. You have been flipping out the whole thread and calling people everything under the bridge when I merely started a semantics discussion of podcast classification. Get a clue Ian and get some facts to back up anything you say.

AND BTW- You spoke a bit about repetition in radio and how you have to say things 100 times an hour. Do you realize how insulting it is to be told the same thing over and over again? Maybe people are used to it on a radio but surely not on podcasting. Just give it up- this thread is dead.
RIP.

[dcolanduno]

I'm curious... If ClearChannel offered YOU and Sloopy $50,000 a year a peice + 20% of your ad revenues... What would you say?

Hmm,

I'd say 'no'. Because that is less than half of what I make now, but I understand your point.

If it was a compensation that could allow me to leave my current employ and chains... MAYBE... I say maybe, because I used to make much more than that from Clear Channel once upon a blue moon, and couldn't stand the experience.

If, somehow, I was able to make enough money to do this 'full' time for a good compensation. I would, most likely. I've always enjoyed on-air work, it's somewhat relaxing.

Would I mind that I am in some other 'list'. No, because in my opinion that would mean that the system WORKED.

It meant that someone from the indy side, that normally wouldn't have had a chance, got bumped into the status of 'professional'.

I guess it just all has to do with grabbing an opportunity during the short time is here.

For some reason such a simple, small thing is so threatening to people, confuses me.

I still love that no one has even acknowledged that ALL other forms of media manipulate their rankings and ratings far more than what we are suggesting.

Being a 'utopist' doesn't gain anyone, anything.

I also love how MOST, all but mainly Ian and maybe Vox... are people we have never seen until this came up, it raises suspicion and flags IMHO.

[dcolanduno]

LET THE BEST RULE!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree in spirit... but look at the landscape of media today, and it is clearly apparent that it doesn't work that way when you don't play the same game as those big whales.

Sorry, it is very true.

[kickasspodcast]

Doesn't anyone else notice the irony and hypocricy that the biggest libertarian podcast is totally regulated by the government?

[jeffoest]

I sort of look at it like this.

If you look at the top 10 gross box office draw movies in any given year, they rarely correlate (in quite often completely opposite) with what is considered outstanding movie making. Most people only come out to theaters to see the blockbusters even if they don't represent what professional critics would deem as superior filmaking. When I say professional critics, I'm referring to grouped opinions of professional movie reviewers via the likes of websites like rottentomatoes.com

Still - a lot of people find and enjoy those films that don't have the box office draw. And these 'crafted' films are much more popular than they were 20 years ago. You can't get more 'big-business' than movies. So we must be doing something right.

Look - we all have choices right? Sacrifice some of your unique vision and go for a mass market perspective for your pocast. That's cool - but the extension of that is that you do sort of become Clear Channel and a lose some control of your work. The magic happens though when you keep unconstrained and fulfill your unique perspective - some will fail and some will be just marvelous and will set the new standards...

I agree with Speechless. Indie voices will be found, are being found, and will continue to be even, perhaps, a more important component of people's news/entertainment/learning... Where there is a market for indie voice (and there is), there will be developing "search engine /directories" that will help those folks find those voices.

=======================

BTW - as an administrator here, please watch the personal attacks. Everyone has a unique perspective coming from unique and often very relevent backgrounds. The forums are here to serve as an enabler for us all to learn from each other and exchange ideas. Questioning each other for clarification or challenging notions is all good. Personal attacks are never useful to these forums and usually say more about the attacker than the person attacked.

But that said, I will not be so nice if this continues.... The Ferf has given me 'power' (evil laugh)......

Seriously though these topics are very interesting and the folks contributing to them seem really intelligent and have a lot of well developed thoughts on the matter. Respect them even if you don't agree with them. They deserve that.

[kickasspodcast]

Thanks for the kind words of wisdom. Honestly my whole point in starting this thread was to get people at least to see that there is a growing group of people who are into the idea of accurate podcast classification. Much in the way each type of tree is classified people naturally organize and sort. This does not lesson the value of each individual tree.

I know this thread was on the heals of another thread that got pretty heated, then was locked. And I think we do need to bring the animosity down. That having been said it is almost human nature to defend one's self against baseless attacks. Ian seems very angry and defensive. There are other people who want to just stop having the discussion.

They are saying theres no problem, stop whining and that is about as sophomoric as you could get. Obviously if people are a syndicated radio show amid mostly DIY podcasters they are going to be scrutinized and pointed out for the extreme differences in their content, format, and point of view. Little things like the commercial breaks, FCC regulation, the fact that their show must be a certain length- usually 2 hours(probably required under an agreement) and the fact that they wanna so angrily bash anyone who suggests what I did. These not so subtle differences clearly distinguish the Syndicated Radio Podcaster from your average podcaster. Jimk said it better than I ever could, I encourage everyone to go back and read his postings on this thread. I also take offense at the notion that I would not play a PROMO for FTL or other people simply because I disagreed with them. I would love to play promos for as many podcasts as I can. Hopefully some of those podcasts would want to return the favor, but I don't even ask that or ask for people to vote. Please continue sending your promos to kickasspodcast@gmail.com Fosco and I will play it!

We are being told there is no difference at all between two very different things. Both have equal value, but that does not make them the same thing.

Jack B.
(perpetually listening to FTL now-thx ian)

[theFerf]

hello to everyone!

i really enjoy reading all these threads and truly appreciate all sides of the arguments. it is quite enlightening most of the time to see everybody get together, with so many different backgrounds, and try to work out the problems with podcasting and Podcast Alley. A special thanks to jeffoest and craig for helping me keep things in line a bit. You, as Alley Members, need to keep in mind that millions of people visit this site every month and they read what you are saying, good and bad....from links on the homepage, rss feeds and in the forum. This is not the place to attack anybody or their shows. The last thing we need to do is discourage the noobs from coming here b/c it is just a bunch of old ladies bickering about the price off dented cans of tuna.

Constructive criticism is always welcome (I should know, I get "criticism" everyday from every direction about everything i do, LOL).

[Ian]

Moderator! Moderator! Kickasspodcast called me a dork!

Oh, drat. He's right. Nevermind.


It seems clear that there are two distinct camps here, and the argument is circular at best.

Thanks to all who support FTL,
Ian

PS. Vox- Thanks for the critique on the logo, but I can't make everyone happy! He'll stay... though there will be a colorized, new and improved version of him eventually.

[georgivs]

I am sick of you and the people who defend you trying to act as though the entire podcasting community is a buncha paranoid dumbasses.

Then perhaps you ought to stop promoting the artificial, arbitrary segregation of the "podcasting community" based on your personal prejudices and interests.

George

[Hittman]

That's NOT what you are doing. These little guys... are unwilling to make money, or to grow. That's the problem. Any of the river that gets shunted into them, is just going to wash over them, or flow around them.

It ain't about money for a lot of people. It is entirely, 100% about money for the fat cats who are on their way.

So Ferf, you haven't offered your opinion on this, and at the end of the day, that's the only one that's going to make a difference. Do you think having a separate category for large commercial radio shows is a good idea, a bad idea, or are you still thinking about it?

[jimk]

I think that at the end of the day, the community at large should have a voice in at least letting the owner of a directory site know how they feel. Ultimately it is 100% that owner's right to do with the site as they please...but if we can be heard and the owner, not just here but anywhere, is willing to listen, isn;t that a good thing?

To that end, I realized that this thread has near 60 posts, but near 700 views. The other two along these lines have equally disproportionate numbers. That means a lot of people are looking who aren't talking. So I created a poll on my site, starkcast.com. Just so no one accuses me of trolling for traffic, you can access the poll without seeing any other part of my site by going here (http://starkcast.com/index.php/weblog/poll_pro_vs_diy_podcasting).

I hope the choices seem balanced enough for everyone. If not, please make suggestions as to more balanced language and I'll be glad to alter the poll.

I think it'll help us all to know what people are thinking when continuing this discussion

[tocard]

You poll doesn't really ask a fair question...

It's not about whether podcast directories listings in general should be split into categories... I support any website's right to do whatever they want with their listings...

Currently PodcastAlley lumps them all together... I support PCA staying the same - if theFerf changes it... so be it.

I'd actually LIKE to see another 'Commercial Podcasts ONLY' website, and an 'Indy Podcasts ONLY' website....

Personally, I hope theFerf doesn't change a THING... and that one of the whiners finally gets pissed off enough, or motivated enough, to actually DO something. To start some actual REAL competition for PCA... I'd like to see that happen. Not in a sarcastic way, or a joking way... I really do hope someone does it.

(right now the other podcast ratings sites - I don't really consider them 'heavy hitters' - they don't have a strong pull like PCA)

but on to the other comments...

Doesn't anyone else notice the irony and hypocricy that the biggest libertarian podcast is totally regulated by the government?

:cry: :roll:
It actually saddens me to believe someone can actually have a thought THAT purely simpleminded.

At any rate... between sessions of wiping drool off of yourself... You should look up hypocrisy... (I know, you can't spell it, so maybe you are fuzzy on its meaning...) Hypocrisy is not what happens when someone does everything in their power to change something they don't like.

However, if you know of a way to better balance the following:

Getting out a libertarian message to people via broadcast radio

While ignoring FCC regulation

and yet NOT getting thrown in jail...

If you know of a better way to do that... Please... enlighten us all.

<sarcarsm>
I know right... we're just big blubbering pansies becuase we don't run right out and start ignoring every law...

and we actually don't want to spend all our time in jail, instead spending it sending out a message to try to create changes in our society and government... Man we FTL people must be TOTAL hypocrites.
</sarcasm>

We have no problems playing by rules... I'm on someone ELSE's private BBS right now that has it's OWN version of what is free speech... Which is why I'm not having mean spirited fun by mocking you 6 ways from sunday with all sorts of delicious delicious ad hominem name-calling attacks regarding your intelligence.

Actually, the only reason I would even BOTHER calling you names in that sort of fashion, would be becuase I don't think that you are ACTUALLY stupid enough to ACTUALLY BELIEVE that we are hypocrites...

I think you were just saying it to PURPOSELY act like a dumbass.

I could be wrong...



Oh and derek...

I did just mean payment for doing what you are cCURRENTLY doing...
(so you would not need to quit your job)

but.. Ok, you made more from Clearchannel in the past than my hopthetical offer....

So.. if they offer THAT much... (whatever the amount) for doing what your PART TIME podcast does now... and getting paid a LOT to do it.

You've basically admitted you'd go commercial... and I think most people would... that's a GOOD thing... not a bad thing.

The wave of money won't be stopped... MOST podcasters will go commercial if this medium goes mainstream.. and those that don't will be smaller and probably many of them will be generally ignored... Competition will start to require better equipment and more money... People are going to develop a taste for better sounding podcasts... STANDARDS... tend to rise.

Would I mind that I am in some other 'list'. No, because in my opinion that would mean that the system WORKED.

It meant that someone from the indy side, that normally wouldn't have had a chance, got bumped into the status of 'professional'.

And what happens if... you finally start getting paid...

and then you stop getting new listeneners... becuase on the PRO LIST... you are now DEAD LAST... or.. very low on this new totem pole... so.. You stop gaining new listeners... meanwhile... Podcast alley is growing.. and the podcasts that were in your place on the OLD indy top 10 are gaing new listeners like crazy still... but.. you... are stagnant... after a while,... Clearchannel wonders why the hell they hired you... because your podcast isn't growing like it WAS... and so they fire you post haste... so ... now you are back on the INDY LIST... but now you have a LOT less listeners and votes, becuase all the listeners you WOULD have gained... you lost while you were on the commercial list... so.. now you have to start all over again...

and so... basically you have now FORCIBLY created a STAGNANT heirarchy of Commercial podcasts... becuase now... through your wonderful ideas of force... Only the really BIG GUY wins... becuase the little guys can't compete. If there are TWO lists... there is NO way to STEADILY climb to the top.

You are assuming that the amount of listeners to commercial and independant podcasts will always stay the same... I think when the money starts flowing more readily... that is going to change. There are going to be a bunch more podcasters who are making money... but doing this from their living room, yet.. still considered "commercial"

[Charles]

Obviously if people are a syndicated radio show amid mostly DIY podcasters they are going to be scrutinized and pointed out for the extreme differences in their content, format, and point of view. Little things like the commercial breaks, FCC regulation, the fact that their show must be a certain length- usually 2 hours(probably required under an agreement) and the fact that they wanna so angrily bash anyone who suggests what I did. These not so subtle differences clearly distinguish the Syndicated Radio Podcaster from your average podcaster.


This is not quite true, in fact the only 2 Podcasts in the top 25 here that are also are on radio are about a half hour. They also Are Not BIG MEDIA in that they are from very small or small media and are quite the underdogs trying to survive and Maybe get on more stations. There is a Major Difference between a very successful truly Big Media program that is on hundreds of stations and very small or small ones that are struggling to survive.


I was the one here in my Podcast Profile story that pointed out that most(not all) big time radio programs have 3 hr time slots, which translates to a almost 2 hr podcast. As I said that is is Not a desirable podcast because of how long it is.

Almost all the top podcasts have transitions in them with bumpers similar to most all radio. There isn't that much a difference between a good small radio show and a good podcast. Once a podcast has good production values it does come closer to a good radio program. After all most podcasters aspire for their programs to have production values as good as a good radio program.

So far there is no problem at all with anything from Big Media on podcast alley. We should not have a kneejerk over reaction and suddenly discriminate and segregate everything into seperate categories. Obviously that makes no sense.

However that said, I had kinda thought in my mind that a radio/tv program that was on a hundred+ stations could be considered Big Media. I think that is a pretty simple easy to remember distinction and definitely a marker that people could say would mark something as no longer being small.

Remember that if there is a problem that necessitates some change that you must have some kind of simple definition of where the boundary is.

There is a Big Problem that exists right now that stares you in the face every time you come on this site. When there is a sleazy Total AD MLM Pyramid Scheme Scam podcast at the top of podcast alley some would consider that almost a defacto endorsement of that kind of Slick Scam Advertising Crap. A lot of people are amazed that that kind of thing is allowed to stay on this site especially when it is obvious that they have gamed/cheated the system here.

I think that Derek made sense on here without over reacting. I would interested in hearing his reaction to these thoughts.

[bramley]

I also love how MOST, all but mainly Ian and maybe Vox... are people we have never seen until this came up, it raises suspicion and flags IMHO.

You can't get that far back in the archives, but these kinds of discussions (about voting and attention and professionals vs. amateurs) have been rolling around long before March 22, I'm afraid.

[kickasspodcast]

Ok- Here is a simple question that may get to the heart of this discussion. (And I voted for Maybe, but only if the two lists are given equal visibility)

Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity now podcast their radio shows! They are the 2 most listened podcasts in the world. How much should we listen to them and take their advice as successful, popular, mega-downloaded podcasting sensations?

My- Answer of Course is....

There is a big difference between Podcasters and Radio Podcasters.

Also.. The only reason Radio Podcasters like IAN are even taken seriously here is 1: he has alot of listeners because he in the radio and people get on here who listen to the radio-therefore he appears to have support. 2: FTL isn't that popular of a Radio show and hence Ian thinks he won't be noticed. If he was as popular as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity however, how likely would it be that greater podcasting community consider him to be like any other run-of-the-mill podcaster.

Adam Curry Said on his June/6/2k5 show while listening to Steve Jobs talk about podcasting that profesional podcasts are typically boring whereas amature podcasts are humorous and superior. I encourage everyone to check out his site http://dailysourcecode.com and get the show from june 7th. He is having this conversation along with us and its an opinion Fosco and I value.

Jack B.

[dcolanduno]

There is a Big Problem that exists right now that stares you in the face every time you come on this site. When there is a sleazy Total AD MLM Pyramid Scheme Scam podcast at the top of podcast alley some would consider that almost a defacto endorsement of that kind of Slick Scam Advertising Crap. A lot of people are amazed that that kind of thing is allowed to stay on this site especially when it is obvious that they have gamed/cheated the system here.

I think that Derek made sense on here without over reacting. I would interested in hearing his reaction to these thoughts.

I totally agree that this issue is getting lost in the shuffle. If it were I running the site, that podcast would have been *removed*, at least from the top 10 immediately.

Why?

For a few reasons;

- NO other media allows infomercials, and service-shows/ads into their rankings. These is a tride and true track record of it being an accepted practice to kick that type of content to the back of the heap.

- MLM and Service push type shows are not real 'content' as much as a very seductive, almost 'con game' type message. I wouldn't take the risk of endorsing that type of show. I don't say this to be paranoid, but it *IS* why TV and Radio will only show this type of thing WAY late at night, and with a ton of disclaimers.

- I think that I have consistantly heard a call to remove it from almost everyone here, and I'd listen to any message that was that consistant.

----

As for the 'other' issue. I couldn't tell you what I would do as ferf... I'm not him. And the message from the community is split, and not even in two, in like 10 parts.

Because we keep running circles around personal attacks and aren't really discussing what the rational solutions would be much, it is kind of paralysis.

I think you would be a fool to believe that PA will NEVER change. So, in the light that it *will* change in some form or other. I think it is reasonable to pitch in ideas about the 'details' of how changes could take place.

Categorization WILL be needed in a better way at some point, and I think that is with or without a 'top 10'. Maybe go to a 'Billboard' type system with different 'types' of top-10's NONE of which are on the front page, just the list of 'categories'. <shrug> lots of options.

If it were me, I don't see the harm in setting up some simple measures to prepare for a seemingly inevitable future.

Even if the big cats 'never' come in, as Ian maintains... then what was the harm?

If they do, this arguement won't be flooded with 1,000 more people in the fray, half of which have no history of building up the current podcasting community, no matter what side of the arguement they fall on.

Maybe it isn't a seperate top 10 list... but I really do think that not setting up indy podcasts to be leveraged front and center moving forward on places like PA... would be a crime. There is no reason not to.

Those big guys, they would never even give you a chance if they had the option. It's all about 'them' in their world. I don't see the harm in playing that game 'just a little' to leverage what we have and expose it to the rest of the world in a big way.

[Ian]

Also.. The only reason Radio Podcasters like IAN are even taken seriously here is 1: he has alot of listeners because he in the radio and people get on here who listen to the radio-therefore he appears to have support.
How presumptious. I have listeners because I give them what they want. Same reason anyone has listeners, whether they are "in the radio" or not.

2: FTL isn't that popular of a Radio show and hence Ian thinks he won't be noticed.
Ummm.. I'm on the top ten because I don't want to be noticed? Huh? You are so confused, dude. Try to think before you type.

If he was as popular as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity however, how likely would it be that greater podcasting community consider him to be like any other run-of-the-mill podcaster.
There are some people in the world that are not angered by and jealous of the success of others. You are clearly not one of them. Thankfully, there are plenty of people who appreciate success and all the hard work that goes into it. Those are the people I want to listen.

How dare you speak for a "community"? There is no community outside the boundaries of your own brain. There are people within this "community" who would appreciate it if I was a "big time" host, who still came here to interact with them personally. I know this because people appreciate that I actually participate on the FTL BBS, as well as respond to emails.

For each of those people there will be people like you. You do not represent this community more than I do, Derek, Adam Curry, The Ferf, Vox Monitor, or anyone else does. We're all individuals with different preferences.

Adam Curry Said on his June/6/2k5 show while listening to Steve Jobs talk about podcasting that profesional podcasts are typically boring whereas amature podcasts are humorous and superior. I encourage everyone to check out his site http://dailysourcecode.com and get the show from june 7th. He is having this conversation along with us and its an opinion Fosco and I value.
Opinions are like *****les, and Adam's **** smells too.

[kickasspodcast]

Good thing your on the radio...


Keep up your know it all, in your face, attitude and total lack of respect for your peers and see what your eventual reputation in the community is.

It is so obvious you are really just a radio guy in the egomaniac you deal with everyone on these forums. Alot of shy/humble podcasters around and you come in actings as if you are the cream of the crop. I kinda hope you keep it up so you will be that kid in school. Ya go ahead and summarily dismiss adam curry's entire opinion...you have made it clear you do not care what podcasters have to say about podcasting.

[Ian]

Keep up your know it all, in your face, attitude and total lack of respect for your peers and see what your eventual reputation in the community is.

It is so obvious you are really just a radio guy in the egomaniac you deal with everyone on these forums. Alot of shy/humble podcasters around and you come in actings as if you are the cream of the crop. I kinda hope you keep it up so you will be that kid in school. Ya go ahead and summarily dismiss adam curry's entire opinion...you have made it clear you do not care what podcasters have to say about podcasting.

I'm plenty humble. I didn't dismiss Adam's opinion. I just made it clear that his opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's.

You have made it clear that you're a meany butt. :roll:

[docsnavely]

Ian, I am noticing a trend with you! Thanks for standing up to your beliefs and not letting others influence your voice. After reading your posts here I do believe I may go ahead and subscribe to your casts.

As for the whole discussion....... I may have missed this since i just skimmed the thread, but what about dividing up the podcasters into 2 categories that they may choose on their own? Professional Broadcasters, and Amateur Podcasters. Let the artist choose which category they want to be associated with when they go to register with the iTunes Podcast page or whatever regulating body this new found medium may have. Just my 2 cents.

[kickasspodcast]

This is a totally unrelated comment I simply must make.

The funny thing is about our whole head 2 head is that we obviously couldn't disagree more on the issue of podcast classification. However.. on the issues of tax reform, the war on terror, the war on drugs, 2 party rule and privacy we probably agree on almost everything.

And for the good of America and considering that 50 years from now neither of us will be podcasting I think it should be noted that it is more important to me, and I imagine yourself, to get more people thinking about the issues that we agree on. This is probably the best thing about your show. SO would you rather me pretty much agree with you politically (except for industrial deregulation) and continue to work to influence others OR disagree with you entirely and just be some pain in the *** podcaster with a different take on podcast classification. Think about it, I am sure you will get what I mean with this.
Some things are more important than podcasting.


Jack B.

[Ian]

Thanks, doc! Let me know what you think, and feel free to call in.

[Ian]

This is a totally unrelated comment I simply must make....
Jack B.

So glad we agree so much! :lol:

[radioclash]

I'm starting to think the worse thing for podcasting was the 'Gonna Kill Radio' press it received, far too early in it's short life.

Podcasting isn't radio - never was. Like new mediums before it it's borrowing the 'clothes' of an existing medium (like photography did with fine art to begin with) but eventually it will define it's own voice, or die.

Like it or not the production values are not the judge of a good cast, like radio - it's the content like blogging which is new, and the convenience factor. That's why they got big - those honest casts from real people...anything else is a temporary diversion into radioland - the radio wannabes will eventually get bored or go into exisiting radio (ala podshow, KYOU) leaving the rest of us to carry on podcasting in out own ways...ditto the radio programs pumping out exisiting content - it won't sound like a podcast, and the like XM/Sirius the adverts will annoy people.

Gain your own voice and following and there's no problem. Provide something different, ie. you. I thought we learned this from DnD?

[Ian]

Geez, I actually agree with radioclash. <pinches self>

[TALK RADIO SHOW]

Jack B. needs to walk into a pit of fire.

[tocard]

All that would be left is his beard... It's unholy.

This thread is hilarious.... I love all the predictions people made.. It's so nice to be right, and watch others be so wrong.

[tocard]

Podshow must be owned by ClearChannel right? :lol:

Oh man... classic thread this one...

[Barefoot Radio.com]

yes, huh?

[tocard]

So Jack... Not a liar eh? I look forward to hearing some free talk live promos on your show... Hey, you offered... here they are...

http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromorita.mp3

I separated the above one out as I'm sure you'll like Rita... She's your kinda gal...


http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromopiracy.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromocheerleading.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromoborderninjas.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromowaronbirds.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromocighotline.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromorita.mp3

Take your pick buddy! :D

[TALK RADIO SHOW]

I hope Jack B.'s beard gets infested with ticks.


That piece of shitt.

[Barefoot Radio.com]

Jack lovers!!!!!

[TALK RADIO SHOW]

I wish Jack's house would become haunted. I want every waking moment of Jack's life to be encapsulated in fear.

[tocard]

You should just mod the video game... F.E.A.R. and give all the enemy soldiers beards... The little ghost girl too...

[BSquared]

Why must every aspect of life be categorised? Right versus Left, Believer versus Non-Believer, Radio Podcast versus Podcast?

Can we not just ...be?

My two other arguments against categorising shows and having to maintain two separate voting streams are...

1) Personally (as a dedicated listener who is never going to be a producer of podcasts) I couldn't give a **** whether a show is a radio podcast or a non-radio podcast. I have 20 shows in my subscription list - 3 of them are radio shows (including FTL which I cheerfully contribute financially to and 2 local shows that are on while I am at work and not able to listen) and 17 are not (many of these I also cheerfully financially contribute to). Each of them is on my list because of content. I am a complicated woman and I like all kinds of subjects. I like politics and cover songs and books and cooking and wine and Scottish bands and hearing about lives which are vastly different to mine and I don't care where the content is generated from - basement or 5-star studio - as long as the content entertains me or educates or informs me (or on a good day all three).

2) Categorising the shows into radio/non-radio is not as black and white as it might first sound. What about those shows that are produced in the basement but now appear on Satellite radio (via Podshow or similar)? Or what if a show like Coverville got picked up for distribution on Clear Channel? Or what about the podcasters who are played on their local radio stations?

Which leads me back to my initial point...when we categorise people we always leave someone out...there is always someone who doesn't fit the neat descriptions we dream up...whether it be people who don't see themselves as left or right or people who don't see themselves as radio or non-radio.

Jack (if you're still reading) I'd like to pose two questions.

1) If your proposal were to proceed (with the radio podcast versus non-radio podcast separation) how would the podcast-listening life of the average podcast listener be improved? And by average listener I mean people like me - people who aren't also podcasters (because ultimately you want more of me than of you otherwise podcasting will never be anything but a niche novelty). How will my life be better if there are two ranking systems? Two directories to trawl? [I ask this question because I think I understand what podcasters such as yourself would get or expect to get from the segregation but I'm really interested in whether or not you understand what I as Ms Average non podcaster gets or expects to get from podcast listening]

2) Have you thought about the potential downside? Have you thought that maybe if there is a clear separation between radio and non-radio shows that new podcast listeners might only ever go to the radio list? That it might never occur to them to take a walk on the wild side?

I'll go back to my lurking now...just couldn't help butting in on this one.

Thanks to all the podcasters I listen to for the great shows. I love you all. Equally. Even Ian (how can you not love someone who is that passionate)?

[Hittman]

I read the first page of posts, but am not going to go through six pages, so forgive me if I repeat what anyone else has said.

My favorite podcast is Penn Radio. It is a podcast of Penn Gellette’s radio show. As much as I love it, I don’t really consider it a podcast in the purest sense of the word, and wouldn’t vote for it in any contest or ranking system.

Ian has been very supportive of the idea of podcasting from the beginning. So it’s on a few radio stations. So? Is that a bad thing? The idea behind podcasting is communication and we all want to communicate with as many people as possible. I don’t put his show in the same category as Penn Radio. Penn is a well known personality using podcasting to make his show more accessible. Ian is a not nearly as well known personality using podcasting to make his show more accessible. I’d vote for Ian, but not Penn. That is, if I bothered voting.

The voting system here is a joke. We’ve got people gaming the system (vote for me and I’ll vote for you!) and have had spamcasts in the top ten. Jack, you’re putting far too much importance on the value of a position on the voting list here. Sure, it’s nice to be in the top ten, but unless you’re there, or at least in the top 25, it’s not going to make any difference in the number of downloads you receive.

If only there were, say, a contest, an award, limited to podcasters voting for other podcasters with a simple system that is difficult to game. Gee, I wonder if there’s something like that out there.

(Nominations for the Podcast Peer Awards start Monday.)

The bottom line is too many people assign far too much importance to getting a high ranking on PCA. Yeah, it’s nice to get there, but most people won't. It’s a lot of work, time that for most people would be better spent making a better show or doing other things to bring in more listeners.

[mental-escher]

Cyberpunk Radio (http://mental-escher.net/cyberpunkradio/) Knows radio is dead, and we sh*t down it's throat - Bwahahahahahaha!.

Cut against the grain kiddies, or you're just gunna be another mush-monkey


But what AJ sez deserves repeating:

I dig Rachel too, but I can't get her on the air, so for me it IS a podcast, and I wouldn't be able to hear her without podcasting.

But Rush Limbaugh is on 600 stations and clears 99% of the US, so for him, "podcasting" is just another gimmick to entice people to pay for what they already get for free.

I think the distinction you're trying to make is "amateur" vs "professional", which should not carry with it an automatic ranking of quality. Think chefs, photographers, mountain climbers.

An amateur podcaster is simply someone who is not trying to earn a living by producing content that ends up as a podcast. A pro is somebody who is "in the business" and trying to make a living.

To a pro, podcasting is one of many choices for distributing content and reaching an audience. For most amateurs, it is the only choice.

Should there be different standards for pro vs. amateur? Might be a good idea.

Should amateurs who reach a certain level of audience or attention be encouraged to "turn pro"? Maybe so.

_________________
AJ, Host of Road Rage