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vox_monitor
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Podcasts are podcasts - be they radio shows or not radio shows. It doesn't matter. The fact is, content is, and always will be, king. If a podcast is of high quality, and entertains, it will be heard, provided the artist(s) responsible put in the necessary effort to acheive a certain level of visibility.

The internet is inherently a level playing field. It can never be anything but. Sure, some people have more resources to expend on visibility. Good for them. That is evidence of a free society. Remember, free men aren't equal and equal men aren't free.

But having more resources to acheive visibility won't do any good at all if your show sucks.

However, cheating is different. Cheating is manipulating the systems that are in place to determine quality - and subsequently award increased visibility - in such a way as to render meaningless that determination.

And that, by all appearances, is what has happened here. The thing is, we aren't in a court of law. We are participants in a site that caters to podcasters, primarily, and eventually to listeners. And this accusation of cheating does not need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And in this context, if it quacks like a duck, and flys like a duck, it needs to be filled full of buckshot.

Now PA might be playing coy with us here. PA benefits from all the improved stats that come from Big Seminar Live gaming the system. After all, to game it successfully, you would have to creat a bunch of new users, and change IP's and several other things. You'd have to become believably different traffic.

But if PA doesn't shoot this duck now, and kill it dead, it is being really myopic. Because ultimately, PA's hierarchies are exactly what it has going for it. And if - when - they become meaningless, PA won't be very attractive anymore.

Idiot Vox is continuing to develop it's quality based hierarchies, at least partially in anticipation of this happeneing. The IdiotVox model incorporates a number of factors including text reviews, star ratings, number of clicks, etc. But it also does something very important. It involves a human being. A person crunches the numbers, but then factors in intangibles including channel editor opinions, and whether or not it looks like there is cheating going on.

PA's system will eventually be gamed into meaninglessness. In every such system, it always happens eventually. Unfortunately, there is no honor code on the internet. I'd never cheat, most people wouldn't. I want to know what the actual level of interest in my show is, for one thing. And for another, I consider it immoral to gain that sort of unfair advantage. But some people will cheat. There's money to be made. And where there's money, there are people who can't compete fairly who will try to cheat to gain an advantage.

I hope that eventually is delayed as long as possible. I like PA. I like posting here. I like checking my votes and seeing how I'm doing. (Number 103!) (if you've heard our show, btw, and think we deserve your vote, please vote for us)

http://www.podcastalley.com/podcast_details.php?pod_id=3643



thanks,

eric.

We need to all stay vigilant is calling out the obvious cheaters, but we also need to all stay vigilant regarding making sure that we apply the criterium "obvious" very vigorously.

vox_monitor
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Look at the comments. Please. Not only are they cheating, they're cheating stupidly. How many of those users have commented on any podcasts but Big Seminar Live? And for those that have commented on multiple podcasts, over what timespan did those votes/comments occur?

Real people vote like this: 1 vote today. 2 votes on Thursday. another vote next Monday. 5 votes on wednesday, just because. etc. Real voters continue voting intermittantly over the course of months.

PA has access to this information - for that show to not be immediately axed is nothing short of outrageous.

I can't believe how obvious it is. Stupid cheaters.

cybercooler
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:31 PM
I have not seen the comments (going there next) I do know the people who run the Big Seminar have thousands of subscribers who are extremely loyal. I know cause I'm on their email list and they begged me to go vote for them. So if it seems like there are tons of people, it may be because there are tons of people... I'm off to peak at the comments.

vox_monitor
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I may have reacted too strongly, and without sufficient consideration, in posting my comments. Obviously, you guys are paying attention, and want to be fair.

At the same time, reading those comments makes me feel pretty sure that they are cheating.

Read them. How do they make you feel?


eric

dcolanduno
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I'm not sure about these guys. Even the folks that are all for the influx of mass-media into the top-10 here on PA alley believe this show should be axed for 'obvious' reasons.

I'm going to have to go listen to this crap-cast myself, I've stayed away, now the curiosity has gotten the better of me.

I think, ferf, the big question by a lot of folks is how do you prevent this type of podcast bulleting into the top 10 in the future? Maybe somehow ban infomercial type podcasts... I know most networks, and such suppress them on TV. And even in TV and radio any 'all-commercial', or infomercial type show is shut out of all ratings systems. Which is why they are labeled as such.

I saw a factoid once that, if infomercials were allowed in the TV Ratings... QVC and that annoying guy that talks about Real Estate would be in the top 5-10 consistantly.

Maybe there is a way to suppress it that way.

I'm gonna go listen to this podcast of suspect nature.

RoadUP
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:08 PM
** IGNORE THIS POST IF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH MULTI-LEVEL (NETWORK) MARKETING. **


It's totally possible...and actually pretty likely...that the votes are all legit (i.e., different people/IPaddys/etc.). It's the nature of MLM (multi-level marketing.)

here's how it works: Sign up to buy a product or service - that's nice, but then you're enticed into not just buying it, but to sell it and more...recruiting other people to sell it. That's where those "be your own boss" ad quips come from.

As a reselling agent, you get commissions not just from the things you sell, but from the things your downline recruits sell. Your "downline" includes not just your recruits, but your recruits' recruits, and their recruits, etc.

So there's a whole subculture out there of people who sign up for and try out different MLM programs. It's like gambling...whether you win or not is not important...you feel compelled to play. It's the game that you feed on...not the magical income you're supposed to get.

If you've cultivated your downline correctly they are like you're groupies...you've let them in on one good strategy/system so the theory is they'll also buy into other systems you pitch them on.

In effect, the marketers are marketing themselves...to themselves. What they actually sell is beside the point...it's getting the bodies that counts to earn the income advertised. It's like a cult of pirana-like marketeers. They feed on each other's motivational energy and leads, and it's usually a feeding frenzy. If you plan it right, once you put the word out on a new system or gimick your downline will flock to it within a day or two, and your commission checks will increase all the more. In the case of Big Seminar Live the resellers could just be saying "be sure to vote for this podcast...if it stays on the frontpage then you can direct YOUR OWN downline to it and make more commissions." And they'll do it to support their upstream benefactors.

If you notice Big Seminar Live received a lot of votes in a short period of time. I've been noticing they then get more votes in ones or twos...then in chunks. If this is what's actually happening PA has been lucky. These downline groupies are numbering only in the dozens so far. God help us if someone with a downline in the hundreds or THOUSANDS makes it to those podcasts.

When these guys find something that works the word will go out pretty fast in the MLM world. It's viral/network marketing at it's finest. They are The Borg, and Resistence is Futile.

THIS is why I went conspiracy theorist crazy over the weekend about it with that PodSPAM post. If they see PA as a good platform to advertise their campaigns they will sign up in droves. I'm not saying it's definately going to happen here, but it is possible. If you've ever been to Craigslist you know what I'm talking about.

So Ferf/Chris: this is just FYI. If this is a MLM thing these people aren't evil, none of this stuff is illegal, it's just going to change the flavor of the site some.

Hopefully, though, it's just an abberation...a lucky strike for some internet marketing outfit. If it is, more power to them. However, if it's Borg....*shivers*! :)


-- Jim

_________________
The RoadUP podcast is in production.

dcolanduno
Jun 7th, 2005, 01:00 AM
Actually,

Most types of MLM are illegal. And, the ones that aren't, are often sued into oblivion because the shady line they walk which is close to con-man status.

Again, I have to mention that even Radio, Magazines, and Television even shove stuff like that spamcast to the back of the bus. On TV and Radio no infomercial is put into the rating schedules, or given the time of day.

We shouldn't here. I is a pretty standard practice to put garbage like that in the bin of... 'yea, you can watch it if you find it at 3am on channel 200'. I don't care if they exist, but they don't belong on the top-10, and make people go find that junk if they want. That's how ALL other media treats it.

Hittman
Jun 7th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Most types of MLM are illegal. And, the ones that aren't, are often sued into oblivion because the shady line they walk which is close to con-man status.

Before the Internet killed BBSs, I ran a 21 line BBS out of my house. (There is still a very thick wire running from the telephone pole to my house.) Some clown bought a subscription and immediately started pitching Amway. He was shut down by one of my regulars who keep hammering him with the same request: "I want to buy a tube of Amway toothpaste from you. How can I buy a tube of toothpaste?" Mr. MLM went into a litany of how he shouldn't just buy the toothpaste, but sign up to be a distributor, because then he would make money on everything he bought, and bla bla bla. The regular came back with "I just want to buy one tube of toothpaste from you." Once again Mr. MLM left a lengthy message talking about uplines and downlines and financial freedom. The regular answered with "I just want to buy a tube of toothpaste from you. How can I do that?" The back and forth lasted for weeks (Mr. MLM didn't participate in any of the other games, chats or message boards available). Finally, his one month subscription ran out, and he didn't renew. The last message in the thread was "But how can I buy a tube of toothpaste?"

RoadUP
Jun 7th, 2005, 03:27 AM
Yep, I like to think of MLM as packets of suger...all calories and no nutritional value whatsoever.

If they were smart they could make their presence here much easier to tolerate by just cou.........well, nevermind. ;)

-- Jim