Condo association tries to stop podcast

[feastoffools]

Hi there folks– this is your furry blue pal Fausto Fernós from the Feast of Fools podcast. www.feastoffools.net

My downstairs neighbors are taking legal action to stop our podcast.

I live in a six unit condo building and the downstairs neighbors just recently moved in have been extremely unreasonable. The building we live in is old and creeky, and they have complained that we make too much noise when me and my partner Marc Felion record our voices for our show. We've put down carpets and walked around shoe-less, but it seems no amount of quiet is enough for their zero-tolerance. They are trying to illegally pass new by-laws that keep us from doing our show.

••• It is being proposed that this law become more specific and prohibit the consistent entry of customers and/or clients involved in any commercial activity including internet, radio, television broadcasting, any rehearsals or performances associated with any theatre and/or any other performance based activity including rehearsals/practice sessions for dance/singing/instrumental productions.•••
A copy of the proposed by-laws can be found here:
http://homepage.mac.com/fernos/newbylaws.htm

I desperately need the help of my podcasting brothers and sisters! Anyone who knows a lawyer in the Chicago area who might be of assistance would be greately appreciated. :(

[Craig]

I don't know how things work in your building, but usually any owner can propose changes to the by-laws. Those changes don't become part of the by-laws, however, unless approved by a certain majority of the other owners (as specified in the by-laws).

What you need to do is talk to the other owners in your building, explain the situation, let them know the steps that you've taken already to try and meet the new owner's concerns, and ask for their support. It would probably help to also present things from the perspective of how such changes might end up being detrimental to them in the future if you can generalize it that way.

With only six units involved, it's highly likely that bringing in an attorney at this point is not going to play in your favor, unless the by-law approval process is out of the hands of the owners.

Craig

[RoadUP]

Howdy, bud...

I don't know any lawyers east of the Rockies, but I do have a question for ya. I read the proposed changes, and in general they don't seem that unreasonable. Are you sure you want to turn this into a legal thing?

It appears as though all they're looking for is for relative quiet between 9pm and 8am. I believe where you're being jipped is where they make exceptions for their favored activities but make no exception for your specific seemingly-legal activities.

It might be worth offering a compromise before sending in the clown teams. If they want advanced notice before their precious quiet is violated offer to give them that notice as long as your activities aren't set apart from their own recreational activities. Then....invite 'em over to be part of the podcast! :)

Actually, I'm not joking. Find a way to get them involved and it won't be an "others" activity...it'll be something they want to protect just as much as their sacred parties/celebrations/family events. Hey, do any of them have relatives out-of-state? Help them put thogether their own podcast so they can stay in touch with their own people. Ya never know, bud......

Believe me, I know what you're going through. I've been a cave (apartment) dweller nearly all my life, and issues come up once in a while. I also spent most of that time in Orange County, CA....spiritual home of the NIMBY philosophy.

So ease down, Hondo! Strive to be as creative in neighbor relations as you are in your podcasts.

With that in mind, good luck working this out. Your podcast seems like a blast....it's on my list for weekend listening.


Peace,

Jim

[bazookajoeshow]

The underground station I DJ was is in a similar situation. We headed off the problem by meeting with our neighbors and letting them know that we we're going to address the problem by using "egg crate" foam to absorb the sound. We made it clear that we wanted to avoid any incoveniences for them and that we would take further steps to solve the noise problem, which helped smooth the dialogue.

The important thing to remember in situations is never to put the other person(s) on the defensive because once you do they dig in their heel;s and the dialogue stops. Bad news.

One thing I found interesting in our situation is that it wasn't so much the music that bothered our neighbors but our voices. The voices carried much more than the music and because it is a human voice people instinctlively listen while they can ignore most music. Given that your podcast is mostly a talk show I'm betting that's their major complaint.

Finally, if the foam doesn't work there are some acoustic bafflers you can purchase that might do the trrick. Their expensive but less expnesive than moving out.

I hope the situation is resolved so everyone wins.

Good luck!

Bazooka Joe

[jeffoest]

LOL - Egg Crates? The only thing to make something quieter is density - thick wood, steel, etc... Egg crates can help 'deaden' your room (though they supposedly suck doing it) but don't soundproof anything beyond the measly material they are made of....

But hey, if they bought that... more power to you ;-)

[Patrick]

Burn all your podcasts to CD and put them in a big manilla envelope and autograph the cover. Present it to them with a basket of fruit. Tell them it's a limited edition boxed set and they can have the first one off the assembly line as a peace offering. Turn them into fans!

If that doesn't work, remember - mercenaries are becoming very affordable.

[bramley]

I don't know of any specific lawyers in this area, but the May issue of Chicago Mag had a huge section on lawyers. Made it seem like only rich white guys inhabit Chicago. If you wanted to get a bit of advice before going full-blown legal, some other options include talking to the Chicago Tenants Union (I don't if this would apply here but they've helped me more than once in a tough situtation) and university law schools in the area often have advice clinics.

But how much time are we really talking about? I mean, I'm not so into being buddies with my neighbors, but I would ask them to work with you on setting up a designated time when you can do this each week that it won't be such a hassle for them. That way they can plan to go the dog park or Shiroi Hana or wherever or just get some earplugs and kick back with a good book while you're doing your thing. I can't know how loud you are, but really, noise is part of life in Chicago. Anytime they'd prefer to have my neighbors who scream up to every apartment at all hours because all the buzzers are broken, tell them to head south on LSD.

[bramley]

prohibit the consistent entry of customers and/or clients involved in any commercial activity

Commercial? Ummm. It's podcasting. Maybe they've a a future we haven't.

[mental-escher]

Poor Fausto!

Sound proofing is only effective if it's isolation sound proofing (look it up if that does not sound familiar), so egg crates and carpet really only lessen reverb, not deaden sound (especially the low freq ones that travel so very well through walls, etc.).

May I humbly suggest that you start recording your show during "normal" hrs... like between 9 am and 10 pm? Might that be an exceptable compromise for your condo association to consider as an alternative to an outright "ban"? Nobody likes late night noises, especially if they are every night, and yours is a daily show (and a **** good one too)...

You could also try seducing your complaining neighbor... but I imagine you've already explored that option...

cb

[Patrick]

1 – It is being proposed that “Consideration Hours� from 9:00pm to 8:00am, seven (7) days a week, be put in place. This includes no noxious activity that would be an annoyance or nuisance to other Unit Owners between these hours. Exceptions to this proposed by-law for celebrations, parties, family events will be made as long as a 48-hour prior awareness is given to all Unit Owners.

Sounds like you have a loophole here. Everytime you want to record, just give notice 48 hours early to all residents (I suggest setting up an email list to notify them all by email to make it easy) that you will be having a podcast recording party. It can be two people, but still a party, and an exception shall be made.

[RoadUP]

If he does end up compromising with his neighbors...is that a Faustian Bargain? :D

Ba-dum-bum!



(Hey, someone had to say it!)

[coreytronic]

Jeez, what kind of show are you guys doing? Live instruments like big time radio from the 30's? Do you have a full studio orchestra? Are there Elephants doing a tapdance in your living room? I think you should respectfully tone it down, explain the situation to them, or change your recording time. That, or you could just piss in thier mailbox.

[RevTim]

That was actually my question. Do you use headphones or does everything just blast out everywhere? It seems that "everyone" talks in their apartments, that should be kind of normal, don't ya think?

HOWEVER, this may be a business model. Pirate Podcasting -- you should send an email to whatever@podshow.com ... hmmmmm... :idea: :wink:

[Craig]

1 – It is being proposed that “Consideration Hours� from 9:00pm to 8:00am, seven (7) days a week, be put in place. This includes no noxious activity that would be an annoyance or nuisance to other Unit Owners between these hours. Exceptions to this proposed by-law for celebrations, parties, family events will be made as long as a 48-hour prior awareness is given to all Unit Owners.

Sounds like you have a loophole here.
No kidding...politely inform your downstairs neighbors that if you weren't podcasting you'd be having nightly parties, and that the podcasts are really to their benefit!

Craig

[dcolanduno]

This type of thing is why I hired a lawyer to extract my home from the HOA in our neighborhood.

The 'idea' of an HOA is great, but I've never seen one not get out of hand.

I got out of our HOA because there were some nutty people on the board that removed the 'logical' laws because they wanted to break them, and then put in some really lame ones. We've made it so we can park our un-registered vehicles in the street, and garden corn in our front lawn... but, you must have ONLY this color trash can, or it's a $300 fine.

Umm, no!

What I would do is go nuts and start making some crazy laws that make as much sense. Stuff like you can't even watch TV between those times, since it CAN be as loud, and the radio, and... so on and so on. Fight back with an overload, and red-tape the system into oblivion.

[Patrick]

If you run out of red tape, try electrical.

[Hittman]

The 'idea' of an HOA is great, but I've never seen one not get out of hand.

A friend of mine moved into a nice suburban neighborhood where all the houses looked alike. There was a light post in the middle of the yard, and he put a red light in it so that people could find his house at night. He was told he was in violation. Their bylaws not only stated the color and wattage of the bulb, but the brand.

Another friend in a different neighborhood had an HOA that was run by old farts with little else to do with their time. They passed a rule that said anyone who was ever in violation could never be on the board, then proceeded to find violations for everyone but themselves.

Please consider that you may be louder than you think. But if your volume is reasonable, and the dorks downstairs refuse to acknowledge that, and attempts to make peace fail, the suggestion of notifying everyone under their "48 hour notice for a party" rule would be a good option.

[feastoffools]

Thanks for all the words of support and encouragement. I spoke to several lawyers today, and they all said that these by-laws are illegal, and if the pass them without getting them approved by a lawyer, the condo association will get sued (by me) and all the reserves will get eaten up in legal fees.

The term is "discrimination" where you can't pass by-laws to punish or address an individuals actions. Why they can have a bible reading group, study group, and I can have a discussion group is an example.

Another temr is "selective enforcement" where some people are scruitinzed and others arent. If they pass these by-laws, NOBODY can keep an online journal, rehearse for a play, play an acoustic muscial instrument, watch tv, talk on the phone, have a dinner party or have any kind of company over.

Our show is simply done via headphones, and we've tried to work with them, but after their personal attacks, it got really bad.

Any more advice?

[bramley]

So, working with them to agree on a specific time is no longer an option?

Then send in mini-Ditka.

Or even full-size.

[feastoffools]

I just hate having to defend my mundane activities to a bunch of militant yuppies who move into my neighborhood and try to force me out of my home.

These people's bedroom is in the basement (2 stories below us!) and they complain about us TALKING. Not singing, not tap-dancing, not playing the stereo loudly, but walking and talking. We don't even own a stereo system. They suck and their behavior is shady and nasty.

We invite guests over once or twice the week at the most. Most of the audio is taped in the field, so all I'm doing after 10pm is editng audio, or talking into a microphone to do an intro or outro. I'm walking to get a cup of coffee to burn the midnight oil editing and posting. There is NO sound but the sound of my feet walking around the apartment after midnight. We have a right to live our lives, to be peaceful, and to have friends come over to hold a conversation. It's in the f*** American Constitution. We are not a business. We don't have customers or clients. We don't have any more or less guests than they do.

Their hostile actions is making me lose sleep, making me lose my sense of humor, and making me fear for my sanity, saftey and financial well-being.

[feastoffools]

Another thing I'm lamenting is the fact they can easily find me by my own name. If I had used a drag name or psedonym and kept it all a big secret, all they would have been complaining about is my existence, not my actions.

Podcasters and bloggers are losing their jobs because they share their everyday lives with the world. This is wrong. This kills democracy and hurts free speech. I'm really depressed about it. It's affecting my sex life and my sense of humor. :(

Note I'm not using my name on the posts here. (they can't find the disussion by googling my name hopefully)

But these guys are kind of evil, and might be stalking me. They have already looked at OLD pictures of me on my flickr account, which is really creepy.

[Craig]

Any more advice?
Have one of the attorneys draft a basic letter to the condo association advising them of the potential consequences of their actions. Write a letter to your neighbors (I'd avoid personal contact at this point if things have gotten nasty) letting them know that your attorney has advised the association not to move forward with the by-laws and that you will do everything you can to keep the noise levels to a reasonable level.

You may also consider slipping a short note under the doors or into the mailboxes of your other neighbors letting them know what's going on. It should say that there has been what you consider to be an unwarranted noise complaint from your new neighbors, that you're doing your best to address it but that you also want to make sure you're not disturbing anybody else and to please let you know if you are. This is basically a pre-emptive strike in case your new neighbors decide their next move should be to try to get the support of your other neighbors.

Craig

[cid92]

LOL - Egg Crates? The only thing to make something quieter is density - thick wood, steel, etc... Egg crates can help 'deaden' your room (though they supposedly suck doing it) but don't soundproof anything beyond the measly material they are made of....

But hey, if they bought that... more power to you ;-)

Are we talking egg crate foam or egg crates themselves. You'd be right in that egg crates wouldn't do much but egg crate foam is what is used in a lot of sound booths to help deaden echo.

[cid92]

I like Craig's idea of having a lawyer draft a letter to the condo association. The problem is they are defining "noxious" activity as podcasting in a very roundabout way. What needs to be defined by the lawyers is what exactly is "noxious"? How about TV after 9PM. If you can hear it through the walls and annoys you, is that not "noxious"? How about a couple having sex at 11PM and the woman or man is screaming bloody murder at orgasm? I'm sure that is "noxious" to some in the building. Where does it end? Just about anything anyone does could be defined as "noxious" to someone else.

These morons are setting themselves up for a world of hurt if they attempt to pass these by-laws. I'm guessing a good lawyer (and you may have talked to one already) could make the case that simply walking across your floor could be considered "noxious". So where does it end? Obviously the tenants that are complaining have an issue with you, not with your podcast but they are leveraging that against you.

Send your preliminary warning shot across the bow of the condo association from your lawyer and then go on the offensive to sway other tenants to your side. Have your lawyer help with that as well. Well crafted letters explaining the situatuion and what impact it will have for EVERYONE in the building will help your cause.

[jeffoest]

LOL - Egg Crates? The only thing to make something quieter is density - thick wood, steel, etc... Egg crates can help 'deaden' your room (though they supposedly suck doing it) but don't soundproof anything beyond the measly material they are made of....

But hey, if they bought that... more power to you ;-)

Are we talking egg crate foam or egg crates themselves. You'd be right in that egg crates wouldn't do much but egg crate foam is what is used in a lot of sound booths to help deaden echo.

True, I just wanted to be clear that these are two very different types of acoustic treatments - deadening/diffusion and soundproofing. Sometimes people think of them as similar - they are completely different and require different processing, techniques, and materials.

(Sorry to get off on this, now back to the real issue....)