Inside Mac Radio Bribes Listeners to Vote for Them

[shingun]

I couldn't believe what I heard in this weeks show. Inside Mac radio is having a so-called "contest" where Scott Sheppard asks you vote for them here on Podcast Alley and then e-mail them a screen capture of your vote. In return for your vote you will be entered to win a Roku music streamer.

Is it just me or is this going too far. I mean, most podcasts I listen to will ask you to vote for them at some point during the show if you enjoy it. However, I've never heard anyone with enough nerve to blatantly offer prizes in return for your vote. I guess they want to make the top 10 one way or another...and they're choosing the later.

Absolutely shameless, I hope this doesn't become a trend.

[dcolanduno]

<sigh>

I understand the frustration. But, look at it from a 'business' standpoint. Since we 'have' seen a direct reflection of being in the top 10 on PA and mainstream news coverage/publicity... You can't blame people for getting aggressive with their attempts to collect votes.

A while back I posted an idea about taking all podcasts that are ALSO on any other form of big-band/broadcast media, OR have hosts that have HAD or currently paid/have other big-media/big-corporation dollars behind them and flagging them somehow. That would allow PA to put them on a different list than the normal 'top 10'. I suggest this, because I think the spirit of the top-10 as it is now, is for the 'grass roots' podcasters not the big money/big broadcast side.

Inside Mac Radio hit's a 'real' radio market as well, TWiT is filled with folks from big-business Television, and the list will get worse as time goes on. I think anyone that already is on the radio, has been on the TV, already has another mainstream media outlet, doesn't need the top 10 here in the same way a lot of 'small' time foiks do, or enjoy.

Not sure exactly what to call the different 'top 10' lists, or even if it is possible.

But, what we really need to grasp is that, unless something is done to change that, this problem won't end here. Once shows like Survivor, American Idol, Ford, Disney, Warner Bros, Virgin Records, BMI, etc, etc, all start posting up their podcasts and wanting publicity as well... it's going to get a lot nastier than something like this little vote grab.

I think Inside Mac Radio is responding, in a way they believe is equal to the importance the media, and others, have placed on the top 10 at this site. When I step back from that, I see why they are doing it. With podcasting all over every media outlet in the past 2 months. The 'precieved' time that one has to make your waves as big as possible before the shoreline is hit seems to be getting shorter and shorter.

[Hittman]

Here's a suggestion for this, or any other podcast search engine: another top ten list called Podcaster's Picks. Only podcasters get to vote on these lists, and they only get X votes per week/month. That way the masses can push American Idol – The Podcast to the top of the charts, but the other top ten list will more accurately reflect the tastes, attitude and spirit of those who care enough about this to create podcasts themselves.

Then let the public decide which list is more valuable to them.

[roadrageradio]

I like hittman's idea of limiting the number of votes each person can cast each month -- maybe in the range 5 to 10 votes. And while we're at it, you should be limited to only one vote (per month) for any one podcast.

I don't think I would limit voting to podcasters only, though.

[jeffoest]

You know - even my my 'smart educated' friends, I can't get them to go through the steps required to start listening to podcasts.

The way I see it is that if the 'big boys' start offering their more mainstream content in this channel, it can only bring more people to it. To me, that's the biggest problem with podcasting right now - there are not enough people that a) know what it is b) have any technical idea how do listen and c) ultimately listen in...

Once more people get drawn into the channel and get used to the new paradigm of time-shifted audio, we will all benefit from some trickle. Paris, where are you when we need ya?

As far as top 10 / top 50 lists go, I can't say I'm too awful concerned. There will be new 'alt' directories popping up here or other places to meet the demand for it. Having a show like "This And That w/ Jeff and Pat" in the same list as "On The Media" or "TWIT" ultimately probably doesn't really help listeners much but these things will change as listeners start to evolve and expect better tools for finding content...

[gavin]

Who knows what kind of directory/ranking features will be built into iTunes 4.9, or any future podcatching software? If people are using iTunes as a way to subscribe to feeds, why not rank the most popular feeds according to the number of subscribers, number of new subscribers, or any other combination? They already have a ranking system for purchased songs on the iTunes music store, why not open that up to the free podcasts? I think some people may have been wary of podcasts simply becuase they have to install a podcatcher app on their machines. If their existing software suddenly opens the door to the world of podcasts, I think the average user will be more likely to start listening. Winamp should follow suit on the PC, or at least someone should write a Winamp plug-in for podcatching.

[coreytronic]

No offense Hitman, but that is a terrible idea. It would only serve to further isolate the podcasting community from the "real world", and foster an even more pathetic culture than already exists. Really, such a system would be even more rife with political manuvering, back scratching, *** kissing, favoritism, and internecine squabbling than we have now. For those of us that want to expose our work to a broader audience, we have to accept an open voting system, even if it means spoofing and phony votes now and then.

[Craig]

I'm with Gavin; I think subscription-based rankings are the wave of the future.

Craig

[dcolanduno]

Here's a suggestion for this, or any other podcast search engine: another top ten list called Podcaster's Picks. Only podcasters get to vote on these lists, and they only get X votes per week/month. That way the masses can push American Idol – The Podcast to the top of the charts, but the other top ten list will more accurately reflect the tastes, attitude and spirit of those who care enough about this to create podcasts themselves.

Then let the public decide which list is more valuable to them.

Hittman, I like this idea. I think you could have the 'top 5' be the open free for all, and then have a Top 10 Podcasters Picks for registered podcasters. Let all of them only get one vote, and they can't vote for themselves.

I don't think this isolates the community much at all. In all other media, the most trusted and lauded 'top' lists are always the industry driven ones.

[dcolanduno]

I'm with Gavin; I think subscription-based rankings are the wave of the future.

I agree that it's the best way. I'll be interested in if iTunes does this somehow.

[Famous Mortimer]

Here's a suggestion for this, or any other podcast search engine: another top ten list called Podcaster's Picks. Only podcasters get to vote on these lists, and they only get X votes per week/month. That way the masses can push American Idol – The Podcast to the top of the charts, but the other top ten list will more accurately reflect the tastes, attitude and spirit of those who care enough about this to create podcasts themselves.

Then let the public decide which list is more valuable to them.

It seems a bit like that would send "independent" podcasting right up its own ***.

[Hittman]

You know - even my my 'smart educated' friends, I can't get them to go through the steps required to start listening to podcasts.

This is still a pretty unknown technology. I have many very tech savvy friends, and most of them have never heard of podcasting.

No offense Hitman, but that is a terrible idea.

If it really is a terrible idea, it won't be the first one I've had. (Or the last, I'm sure.)

It would only serve to further isolate the podcasting community from the "real world", and foster an even more pathetic culture than already exists.

I don't find the culture pathetic at all. I find lots of pathetic podcasts, which is to be expected in any new art form, and double for one as new as this one. But the culture growing up around it is pretty cool.

Really, such a system would be even more rife with political manuvering, back scratching, *** kissing, favoritism, and internecine squabbling than we have now. For those of us that want to expose our work to a broader audience, we have to accept an open voting system, even if it means spoofing and phony votes now and then.

How long have you been involved with creative people? I've been dealing with performers for three and a half decades. Hell, I train actors for fun, and there are no more insecure, back scratching, *** kissing, squabbling people on the planet, with the possible exception of politicians. You're going to find that any time you deal with creative people. It comes with the territory.

I'm not suggesting the public top ten/top fifty be eliminated, just that we augment with another list, and let people pick which one they use. (Most will use both.)

Another approach, and I'm not sure of the name of it, is one I've seen done for books, movies, and music. You're given a list of five or six movies, and you rate them from awful to great. After you've tagged a dozen or so, the system makes a guess at other one's you'd like, based on other people with similar tastes. You rate these offerings as well, and jot down the unfamiliar ones to explore further. It's a pretty cool system, and while I don't think podcasts are popular enough to implement it now, they will be in the future.

[gavin]

You know the way Feedburner keeps track of people subscribed to a feed? That's the kind of info that should be collected in one place for a ranking system... right?

[vox_monitor]

The voting system at PA is indeed flawed. It's flawed because it is so subject to abuse and because, fundamentally, vote getting is not a function of quality - it is a function of social networking.

So what you have on Podcast Alley is a list that represents the top ten social networkers.

www.idiotvox.com is in the process of developing a directory in which hierarchies are determined by merit. It, naturally, is taking some time to finish. But the guy behind it has made a great deal of progress, and I, for one, am convinced that idiotvox will eventually supplant podcast alley as the dominant directory and the only directory whose hierarchies are looked at as meaningful.

granted, my boat is tied to IdiotVox, so I'm a bit biased. But what I'm saying here repesents what I genuinely believe, regardless.

Cohry and I discuss this issue some in episode ten of Vox Monitor.

eric

[Craig]

The voting system at PA is indeed flawed. It's flawed because it is so subject to abuse and because, fundamentally, vote getting is not a function of quality - it is a function of social networking.
One thing PA can't be accused of is standing still. The ranking system has gone through several changes over time and will continue to evolve.

Craig

[dcolanduno]

One thing PA can't be accused of is standing still. The ranking system has gone through several changes over time and will continue to evolve.

I can say, I agree with this assessment by Craig...

I just haven't seen many changes lately, and I think maybe some of the multiple ranking lists are something to seriously look into.

[coreytronic]

"How long have you been involved with creative people?"

Long enough to know that a separate "podcaster's choice" list would likely resemble a popularity contest more than an honest critical appraisal.

But, Hitt, I do think you have a good idea for some kind of point system, or say a one to five star ranking. Quality might then be stressed over quantity. And that's good for everybody.

[bramley]

vote getting is not a function of quality - it is a function of social networking.

So what you have on Podcast Alley is a list that represents the top ten social networkers

Thank you for saying this. I have thought this for several months. However, I'm not sure any system can get around it. (If you're a novelist with a lot of friends they will also inflate your ratings at Amazon for you.) I'm just glad that someone is recognizing it rather than blindly walking around saying how the ranking at PA is the best measure of good podcasts -- as I have heard/read outside media say/print. However, what PA is is a great respresentation of the podcast community's diverse voices. And an amazing wealth of info on each podcast.

Every system is flawed in one way or another; we just need to take it for the fun it is. You don't really like the films that win Oscars better than others do you?

(But I do have to secretly say that I like the star rating system at Idiotvox and the way "reviews" rather than merely "comments" are encouraged and more obvious when viewing info about a podcast.)

[dcolanduno]

(But I do have to secretly say that I like the star rating system at Idiotvox and the way "reviews" rather than merely "comments" are encouraged and more obvious when viewing info about a podcast.)

Podcast Pickle has this feature as well... along with the 'favorites' system to sort of track, 'subscriptions' more than 'votes'.

[bazookajoeshow]

Speaking of Podcast Pickle, I'm going to be interviewing Bary from the Pickly this week on the small WORLD podcast. Podcast Alley is the source to go to for podcast directories but the Pickle offers some great services which I plan to find out all about.

Bazooka Joe

[Hittman]

Long enough to know that a separate "podcaster's choice" list would likely resemble a popularity contest more than an honest critical appraisal.

Is that the way you'd vote?

Me neither.

Have a little confidence in your fellow casters.

Yes, there would be some that, probably approximately exactly as much as there is now.

Musicans are more critical of other musicians than the general pubic is. Actors are more critical of other actors. I think that applies to any art form, and this is no exception. I won't listen to a crappy podcast, and won't vote for it even if my best friend is doing it. And I'm guessing, just guessing, that compared to a list voted on by the unwashed masses, a list created by podcasters would reflect podcasters tendencies to:

1) Be more critical of the overall quality of a show
2) Spend more time digging through the crap to find the pony – so more obscure shows would be discovered
3) Turn their noses up at corporate offerings, preferring more non-commercial shows.

But, Hitt, I do think you have a good idea for some kind of point system, or say a one to five star ranking. Quality might then be stressed over quantity. And that's good for everybody.

For the most part, but it may be a little lopsided, at least if people vote and rate the way I do.

I tend to leave crappy shows unrated. I downloaded something yesterday which had an interesting description, but was just awful. It was some tin-foil hat guy trying to do a stream of consciousness show. The sound quality sucked, the delivery sucked, the content was horrible…but I didn't bother going back and giving him a bad rating. He's a harmless old coot amusing himself (and probably no one else) so why ruin his day with a condescending comment or a lousy rating. (You'll notice I didn't mention the title here either.) OTOH, I try to be sure to rate and/or vote for shows I like, to encourage, in some small way, their creators to keep entertaining me.

[bramley]

Podcast Pickle has this feature as well... along with the 'favorites' system to sort of track, 'subscriptions' more than 'votes'.

Yeah, I like a lot of what Podcast Pickle has to offer. But the voting system and the subscriptions encourage that kind of podcaster-only insularity that prevents a wider audience joining in. I understand why it's set up that way, but it's not for me. Because I have a topic that is neither tech nor general audience, in spite of having what I think is a pretty crafted show, I don't get lots of podcasters going "oooh, man, I love Eat Feed" or "Eat Feed rocks." I get a lot of listeners from food-related sites and blogs. They aren't podcasters. They aren't going to subscribe or create an account, etc. to vote. They aren't interested in growing the medium and they aren't invested in making sure their favorite show wins.

I have had links to Podcast Pickle and PA on my site for some time. Didn't do much. I recently added a link to Idiotvox. For whatever reason, people started writing reviews.

BTW, Batpig is quite an icon in our own house of crazy animal antics. Mr. Eat Feed is scared our dogs and cats will want their own iPods now, though.

[Famous Mortimer]

I just assumed that the way shows would be ranked would be on subscriptions...it's not perfect, but it's better than voting, which is open to a hell of a lot of cheating (multiple voting, bribing listeners).

[dcolanduno]

I get a lot of listeners from food-related sites and blogs. They aren't podcasters.

I think our podcast is about the same situation. Most of the podcasting community, (Podcasters), center their listening on Indy Music, and Couples-casts. I've given the tip before to other p'casters that if you have a 'subject' or 'niche' type 'cast, you need to go and advert outside the podcast community.

I even go as far as posting the direct link to my new shows, as well as a link to 'how to subscribe' link on all my new show announcements in non-techy places. I'll NEVER get votes from 99% of those people, no matter the system.

BTW, Batpig is quite an icon in our own house of crazy animal antics. Mr. Eat Feed is scared our dogs and cats will want their own iPods now, though.

LOL! That means you took the time to find our studio website! eek! LOL, we never really have done anything with that **** site, always tied up working on something else. Yea, the Batpig digs the iPod. I did it as a joke one day, and thought he'd shake those earbuds out. Instead... he just laid there and went to sleep to the tunes. So Swoopy, she staged that picture the next day...

[theFerf]

Just so everyone knows, We have been working behind the scenes here developing the new "My Alley". This new section of the website will allow you to manage all of your podcasts in multiple playlists and will make voting simple, even for non techs. We are already beta testing with about a dozen people and are working out the bugs before a public release.

Things are getting exciting :)

[surfbits]

Getting back to the original question, do you think that offering prizes for listeners votes is right and will it be the wave of the future here?

[jeffoest]

Gosh, I've been paying $5 / vote for months... ;-)

[SFEley]

Musicans are more critical of other musicians than the general pubic is. Actors are more critical of other actors. I think that applies to any art form, and this is no exception.

Do musicians and actors put up sites encouraging people to vote for their "top ten" albums or plays? If they do, does anyone pay attention?

Guys. The system is hosed. Ferf puts a lot of valiant work into fixing it, and each fix only prompts people to get a little more creative about hosing it. Meanwhile, people continue to spend the first half of their podcasts talking about votes here instead of whatever their podcast is actually about. Good for Podcast Alley, bad for podcasting. We need to mature out of this mentality.

Do you go to a TV rating site to decide what to watch? No. You open up the TV listings, you read the descriptions, you listen to your friends, you soak in all the memes of whatever's being talked about this week. We don't take this voting approach to books, movies, music, anything else. And if we did, people would complain bitterly when Hollywood or the record labels spent millions to "buy votes."

The last couple posters here have had the right idea. Work on word of mouth. Reach out to non-podcasters. Make the best podcast you can, one that people will want to talk about, and stop worrying about the freakin' votes.

The bigger podcasting gets, the less these votes will mean. If you decide they're meaningless today, and adjust your priorities, you'll be ahead of everyone else's game.

[JesusGeek]

why not just make a rule... no bribes for votes in your podcast or you have to go to "timeout" for a month? :?:

[jeffoest]

Meanwhile, people continue to spend the first half of their podcasts talking about votes here instead of whatever their podcast is actually about. Good for Podcast Alley, bad for podcasting. We need to mature out of this mentality.

Hmmm... I think we're probably just listening to different podcasts but I haven't run across that. Seems like the most I hear is about 10-15 seconds on most podcasts that do mention it...

Now what IS annoying is those podcasters that spend up to half of their show (sometimes that IS their show) talking about and playing references to themselves or their show from others..... THAT gets tired in my opinion. A pity - because some of those podcasts are actually quite good once they get beyond that.....

[bramley]

Yea, the Batpig digs the iPod. I did it as a joke one day, and thought he'd shake those earbuds out. Instead... he just laid there and went to sleep to the tunes. So Swoopy, she staged that picture the next day..

You must do something with this! It is the best one of the "ipod out of context" images going in the podcasting world right now. When you have you're own podcast directory - Batpig Pod or somesuch - this must be the logo. Until then, though, I think you have to market this in some way.

(Sorry to change the topic. Now back to your regularly schedule debate about voting.)

[dcolanduno]

You must do something with this! It is the best one of the "ipod out of context" images going in the podcasting world right now.

So people don't feel confused, here's the image:

http://www.batpigstudios.com/rempodbw.gif

When you have you're own podcast directory - Batpig Pod or somesuch - this must be the logo. Until then, though, I think you have to market this in some way.

Maybe theFerf can give me 'Batpig' corner... "stuff even this dog would listen to..." :)

[s]

A while back I posted an idea about taking all podcasts that are ALSO on any other form of big-band/broadcast media, OR have hosts that have HAD or currently paid/have other big-media/big-corporation dollars behind them and flagging them somehow. That would allow PA to put them on a different list than the normal 'top 10'. I suggest this, because I think the spirit of the top-10 as it is now, is for the 'grass roots' podcasters not the big money/big broadcast side.

Oooh, I like this "side" idea (even though "bribery" of some sort occurs on commercial and independent podcasts alike). This morning I went to vote for Rachel Maddow because I've taken to listening to this daily news dose religiously, but I feel kinda bad about it, because she has a whole flippin' radio network behind her. What I'm listening to is just "tape-delayed radio" for the 21st century. Same goes for Morning Stories and Newsweek on Air. All three are shows I LOVE, but they sure as hell don't need the kind of publicity a forum like this provides, WE do.

It's kind of amusing that the medium of podcasting, which is like the new secret weapon against the RIAA/mainstream radio for "indie music," seems poised to devolve now into a competition between "mainstream podcasting" and "indie podcasting." We'll have the Curry/Podshow people, the "old school broadcasting" types with new net presence like those mentioned above (shall we call them broad-to-podders?), and then hobbyist little geeks like us who at most earn a few bucks a month from Google Ads or something.

Then we're going to need a new meta-medium to come along to promote indie podcasts. "You're listening to Indiepod Insanity! Telepathically torturing your mind with the echoing voices of podcasts you won't hear on Podshow.com..."

[bramley]

>Maybe theFerf can give me 'Batpig' corner... "stuff even this dog would listen to..."

But would he vote for it?

[Hittman]

I've just come up with a perfect voting system.

Everyone gets ten credits per month, which they can use for votes.

The price of a vote varies according to the length of the podcast. It costs 1 credit for every ten minutes, or fraction thereof. A show that was ten minutes or less, one credit. Twenty five minutes – three credits. An hour – six credits.

This is obviously a perfect solution, and the fact that my podcast is about eight minutes long has nothing to do with it.

[SFEley]

I've just come up with a perfect voting system.
Everyone says "Screw this" and goes out for a beer?

(That's the one idea I kept waiting for in your Rational Republicans proposal too, BTW.) >8->

[bramley]

I wish I had a vote for every new voting scheme a podcaster dreamt up. :P

[shepdave]

Getting back to Inside Mac Radio for a moment...

A bizarre thing happened to me (to my computer) overnight.

Background: I use plain old iPodder 2.0 on a Mac iBook as my podcatcher. I tried the demo version of iPodderX for the free month, but ended up going with the Lemon to get podcast subscriptions.

Last night I ran the Apple software update on my computer, and left it overnight. I was upgrading several Apple apps, including QuickTime player.

When I got onto my computer this morning, there was a new folder on my desktop: iPodderX Downloads. "Hmmm. I don't use iPodderX; wonder what's in there?"

When I open up that folder, it contains another folder called Inside Mac Radio, which in turn has the last seven episodes of that podcast. Please note that I do not subscribe to IMR, it just appeared on my computer unbidden overnight.

What the hell is up with that? What kind of deal does IMR have with Apple that caused it to appear on my desktop without my asking or wanting it there?

Dave

[jeffoest]

Wow!

Actually they are stealing our thunder though. I'm working on an exclusive deal with Microsoft where not only would the Windows OS automatically download the latest This And That Podcast but you would not be able to do anything on your computer until you have listened to it..... It's going to be gold!

[Patrick]

I don't understand the issue here really. Is what they are doing underhanded in any way?

If you like my show, vote for it, send me your email confirmation, and I'll send you a t-shirt if you win our monthly drawing. When I say it like that does it seem so bad?

People look for anything and everything to bitch about. It's not bribing - it's marketing.

[SFEley]

When I open up that folder, it contains another folder called Inside Mac Radio, which in turn has the last seven episodes of that podcast. Please note that I do not subscribe to IMR, it just appeared on my computer unbidden overnight.

Now you know why it's called Inside Mac Radio. >8->

You said you'd messed with iPodderX for a while. Did you uninstall it after you stopped using it? And empty the trash? If not, my suspicion would be that some glitch somewhere woke up its cron job, and it started working in the background. IIRC, IMR is iPodderX's default subscription. I also recall that even after my trial version of iPodderX expired and before I bought it, it kept downloading podcasts for me, I just couldn't get into the interface.

Anyway, hunt for it on your system. You might also went to go to the iPodderX site and let them know, as this is clearly poor behavior for any app.

[shepdave]

Yep, I've communicated with iPodderX. I'll just dig out all the iPodderX files and trash them.

I will never say anything negative again about this or any other podcast--ever. I was threatened with legal action, and got not only three crude and mean emails, but also a crude and mean comment on my Podcast Alley place--which made me feel bad.

Jeff, when you cut your deal, make sure it's also with Apple, too, so us Mac-types absolutely HAVE to listen to your 'cast. And I promise I will never say anything bad about you, so your crack legal team (led by Intern Josh) doesn't send me a mean email.

Dave

[jeffoest]

Dave - it's a deal - do NOT get intern Josh mad at you... not a pretty scene ;-)

[Patrick]

Dave, you are being a bit of a pussy about this whole thing. Are you really threatened whenever anyone threatens legal action, especially someone who can't write a professional email?

"Your honor, he slandered my podcast on podcastalley.com and said we do something we didn't."

Yeah, right. Get bent.

And you're afraid to say anything bad about any podcast now? If you get spooked by a "mean" email, I think you're a little hypersensitive. I love people who are passionate about my podcast, in either direction, because it means you're getting to them.

Don't be afraid to speak your mind. If you don't like a podcast, say so. I make it a point to on my podcast with a regular segment called "Bad Podcast of the Week".

[shepdave]

Yeah, you're right, Patrick. But I got spooked by the "we know where you live" message.

All right. I will now try to get my nose out of a dictionary and get some backbone.

This is, so far, a more interesting day than I anticipated when I woke up. Well, it's the end of the school year at the high school where I teach, and everybody's in assemblies and field trips and so on, so I'm here on PA instead of teaching.

An idle mind is the devil's workshop--or something...

D

[SFEley]

An idle mind is the devil's workshop--or something...

This explains the midsize sedans that keep coming out of my ears. The Devil's set up a full-blown automotive plant in my head.

Now relax and enjoy your Friday. >8-> FWIW, I hadn't heard of your podcast before, but it looks rather cool; I intend to subscribe to it when I get home. I also passed it off to another friend of mine who goes by the handle "Wrdnrd." I told her you'd stolen her mojo and added vowels to it.

[shepdave]

Bless you, my friend.

Please check us out. Jeff & Pat claim to like us. (Just as we always properly claim to love them, which we really do!)

We're just three little nerdy high school language teachers who like this stuff.

Thanks again for your support. I'm saying NOTHing, I mean NOTHing, bad about Inside Mac Radio. You all go ahead and say what you want.

Dave

[kevdo]

The show itself was kind of bugging me anyway, and with all this I decided to drop my subscription to the show. I wrote them a letter telling them why.

Here's the reply. Now I'm sooo glad I decided to drop them.

What a dick.
On Jun 5, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Scott Sheppard wrote:

On 6/5/05 3:38 PM, "Kevin Crossman" <kevin@kevdo.com> wrote:

Three reasons:
a) Scott always calling every "cool" or describing the "cool stuff".
Very very annoying.

Cool !

b) Unfair bribe tactics to get into the Top 10 at Podcast Alley

Unfair ... HA. This is what you call marketing pal. IMR has over 500,000
downloads per month and we ask for a few cats to go vote and they get
interred into a contest ... BIG DEAL

c) Completely uncalled for strongarming those who made comments about
IMR shows being downloaded by iPodderX. Not cool guys.

The idiot was slandering Inside Mac Media, Inc. This is not a game for us.
If he is too stupid to run the software on his Mac then to bad. But we are
not going to let some fools slander our company and get a way with it.

Have a GREAT DAY !!!

Cool

--

Scott Sheppard
Editor-In-Chief

[SFEley]

Here's the reply. Now I'm sooo glad I decided to drop them.
On Jun 5, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Scott Sheppard wrote:
Unfair ... HA. This is what you call marketing pal. IMR has over 500,000
downloads per month and we ask for a few cats to go vote and they get
interred into a contest ... BIG DEAL


Heh. "Interred?" Perhaps Dave (the Word Nerd) ought to drop him a line again to let him know that "interred" means "placed in a grave or tomb."

If that's what they're doing to their supporters, no way am I going to vote for them! >8->

[Hittman]

Here's the reply. Now I'm sooo glad I decided to drop them.

It almost makes me wish I had a Mac and subscribed, so I could drop them too.

[kevdo]

The response was pretty shocking. I didn't expect them to reply and if they did I expected something along the lines of "we're sorry you don't appreciate our show" or something like that.

With regards to "cool" I swear that guy must use the word thirty times in the 90 minute show. Soooo annoying, but I actually thought he might appreciate the constructive feedback.

Attaching voting to a contest on the site is bribing people for their votes. For a better way to see how this should be done, see the This Week in Tech which does a much more "thank you for the support" approach to begging for votes. IMR definitely crossed a line.

Whether the original posted slandered the site or not is a matter of opinion. The heavy handed way the person was treated is less so. And, I guess I tend to agree myself.

Jerks!

[Charles]

Maybe people should keep leaving truthful enlightening comments on the IMR program here. One can do that without voting. A mention of withdrawing ones vote and voting for say, MacCast instead might also be good.

I just left this comment there:

"Unfortuately this program has resorted to offering bribes/prizes in order to unfairly pander for votes here.

Mr. Sheppard also made legal threats by email against someone that merely voiced his complaint on the forum here that this program was offering bribes to get votes.

In my opinion, all of this is highly unethical and very sleazy by Mr. Sheppard.

This type of unethical behavior should not be allowed on podcast alley and this program should be expelled.

Check the forum here, there is a whole thread on this appaling overly arrogant behavior."


I should have also said the program is extremely too long and extremely boring.

Link to leave your comment on IMR:

http://podcastalley.com/podcast_details.php?pod_id=482


Maybe another thread here too with the Title Of:

"Inside Mac Radio threatening people with legal action if they criticize the show."

Does anyone really believe that they have half a million downloads? LOL
Probably much closer to 5000 ;)

[Patrick]

Everytime I play IMR on iTunes, my hard drive gets wiped out and my wireless network doesn't work.

I blame IMR.

(Name and address available upon request.)

[Patrick]

PS - I think Inside Mac Radio is a virus. I wouldn't listen if I were you!

[BobArctor]

You guys make me remember why i hated high school.

I thought Mr. Sheppard threatened legal action B/C someone said his show was doing something it should not (spamming users i think). Also, I did not see anything in his posts about not listening to any show, nor about bad-mouthing any other show. I thought what he said was, you don't like what i'm doing, don't listen.

Maybe the guy got tweaked. I personally think the "contest" is a bad idea too... but don't kid yourselves... its not a "bribe" because there is no guarantee. Podcasting is the Web all over again. Remember when it was "geeks" posting pictures of their cats and things they had drawn and poetry? Then... one day... its CNN, MSNBC, and "big" players.

If PA survives the coming changes -- and they're coming fast -- six months down the road, the chance to win a prize for proving a vote will be a laughable reason to have started a "flaming" war (which i think sending "hate" messangers to a show's comment page constitutes).

Name calling and encouraging of name calling... What are we. 12?

[Patrick]

We are just funning around Bob.

In all honesty - I think this is ridiculous and have to side with IMR on the bribe issue. How in the hell is it a bribe? Yes, it's pandering for votes. Yes, it's holding a contest. Radio stations do this kind of thing all the time.

I'm just glad they did it and got outcasted before I thought of it and did it, because I sure would have done it and not thought twice about it. I really don't see what the big deal is.

People are really unsubscribing because "IMR used unfair practices to get votes"? Get real. First of all, if you like a podcast, stay subscribed. If asking for your vote and holding a contest drives you away, you aren't a fan.

Yes, the guy from IMR responded like a douche about some guy saying some IMR episodes were automatically downloaded to his Mac. He overreacted a little. Again, if you like the show, don't unsubscribe over it.

But the issue at hand in this thread - about IMR bribing listeners - is ridiculous. I think some people are just jealous because they didn't think of it first. If I were IMR, I would continue to do the contest monthly.

[kevdo]

I think the word bribe shouldn't be taken literally but more figuratively.

[dcolanduno]

It is all just a reflection of how important the top 10 here has been precieved to podcasters.

And, I can't blame them, the media seems to run to Podcast Alley and then do articles on the podcasts in the top 10 here. So, a level of importance becomes attached to it.

I think the attitude IMR had was that is has finally just become a business, and now that a lot of folks are getting rewarded with big-press for making the top 10, they want a bit of that action.

From a 'business' standpoint what they did is mild, compared to the advertising tactics of most major players.

From a 'community' standpoint it sucked.

If you can't see the connection to the threads that we have running about the future of the community, (this site mainly), and vote grabbing like this. Then you are a little diluted. It will get worse when corporate weasels that start fighting for the top 10 jump in.

Maybe it won't happen, but I have a sneaky suspicion it will. I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, but I sadly have a friend that does. This friend didn't even know about podcasting and brought up Podcast Alley. It was because, during some rambly segment Rush brought up his upcoming podcast, and people 'helping me get on places like Podcast Alley, and wherever you put these things...'

Be prepared for some really strange stuff once dudes like that bring in their minions!

Why I don't think it was good for IMR to take the approach they did... It is because it snaps the spirit of what a lot of folks here have clung to, make a good show, get support of the folks in the community, get on the top 10. It almost turns that around and becomes the foreshadowing moment of things to come.

[SFEley]

Why I don't think it was good for IMR to take the approach they did... It is because it snaps the spirit of what a lot of folks here have clung to, make a good show, get support of the folks in the community, get on the top 10. It almost turns that around and becomes the foreshadowing moment of things to come.

Which is exactly why I just stated in another post (http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12678) that we need to get over the "voting" mindset completely. The community can find other strong ways to support itself -- ways that non-community-mindedt podcasts won't have any interest in, or if they do take an interest, will force them to become community-minded. Meanwhile, any energy put into stressing about Podcast Alley votes is wasted energy.

[dcolanduno]

Meanwhile, any energy put into stressing about Podcast Alley votes is wasted energy.

I'm not sure about that, even the major media has latched onto the PA top 10 for a lot of it's guage on podcasting, and so do many people that don't come to the forums.

Now, I don't actually ask for votes, but there is definately a 'tone' set by that top 10 for the podcasting world in general.

I'd like there to always be a tone similar to what we have had here, basement shows like D&D, Illinoise, etc, etc,... being on the front page along side the upcoming wave of junk that is going to fly our way.

I don't think the stress is put on us as individuals about the votes, more than where it is going to lead moving forward.

[jeffoest]

Meanwhile, any energy put into stressing about Podcast Alley votes is wasted energy.

Everytime I hear this phrase, I just have to laugh. What "energy" are we talking about? This "energy" somehow competes with the energy that it tekes to innovate, create and produce? Really?

Look, at the end of the day, if it takes you a lot of energy to ask your listeners for voting that distracts you from producing the best podcast you can, then don't do it. But don't advise me on my 'energy' allocation - perhaps I'm more efficient than you are, don't blame me.

[Patrick]

If you vote for my show and forward me the email, I'll be dispensing handjobs out back.

[SFEley]

I'd like there to always be a tone similar to what we have had here, basement shows like D&D, Illinoise, etc, etc,... being on the front page along side the upcoming wave of junk that is going to fly our way.

My recommendation, then, would be to build the system you like, and to base it on something other than voting. A collaborative review system might work, or perhaps a recommendation system that lets people click in the podcasts they listen to and get back a "People who listen to those podcasts also listen to..." list.

Chris could do this for Podcast Alley. Or you could do it. While it's true there are too many podcast directories already, they all tend to work the same. You could outdo them, and if your system fits listeners' needs better people will gravitate to it. Figure out what your goals are, then create a mechanism that rewards those goals.

[Hittman]

Garage Band doesn't let you pick which band you review. You pick a category, and they send you the music. This makes it very difficult to game the system.

That might be a cool approach. Sorry, you don't get to vote for any old podcast out there, but if you'd like to vote, click here. We'll let you pick a category, then send you ten random podcasts to review and vote on. You have to vote on at least half of them before you get another ten.