First post! : Recording at 24bit/44.1 vs. 64kpbs MP3

[jeffoest]

Hi all,

First post here and first night of membership. This looks like a great community!

I have been doing my first podcast (3 shows so far! lol) using my music studio equipment (tube large condener mics, analog compression, outboard effect, 24bit recording, etc..) which I think is probably a bit overkill for the resulting format and the audience expectation. But you use what you have, right?

But - my question: I'm looking into possibly getting an Edirol R1 recorder for some mobile recording and was wondering if there is any quality difference in recording at pristine rates (like 24 bit , etc..) and compressing to say a 64kpbs MP3 or just simply recording at 64kpbs. The only thing that comes to my mind is that possibly if you have control in the data compression vs. relying on the recorder's compression engine, you stand a chance to have better quality - but that may not be not very meaningful. The question comes up because if I buy this Edirol unit, it would dictate the size of CompactFlash I would end up buying. Anyway, I'm sure SOMEONE has tried some experiments ;-)

Thanks all - and let me offer my assistance to anyone with techno-audio engineering/production questions - I've gotten pretty handy on the music production end of things over the last four years!

Regards,
Jeff

[F7sound]

Jeff,

I'm kind of in the same boat as you since I also record 24 bit/44.1k using much better gear than is really required for podcasts. My philosophy is to record/edit at the best possible resolution and then for a final step, compress to mp3 using either Pro Tools or iTunes (depending on which computer I have with me).

I just began using the iRiver iFP 899 which records mono 160kbps from it's internal mic (at its highest resolution). I take that and import into Pro Tools for editing and post production.

There is a quality difference in recording at 24 bit / 44.1k versus 64kbps mp3 and it should be very audible.

The new Edirol looks like a good device. What convinced me to get an iRiver for mobile recording is its size. The **** thing could fit on a key chain, runs on 1AA and has an internal mic that's surprisingly decent. Plus it has a line-in for stereo recording at rates as high as 44.1k, 320kbps mp3. Not bad. iRiver iFP 799/899 is a 1GB flash recorder that you can get for around $200.

BTW, my first podcast with the iRiver had some distortion problems because I didn't set the Automatic Gain Reduction (for internal mic recording) to the "ON" position which is a great idea for this particular unit.

Hope this helps,

Michael Oster
F7 Sound and Vision
http://www.F7sound.com
my podcasts - http://www.F7sound.com/podcasts.htm

[jeffoest]

Thanks for the response Michael.

Yea - that's what I was kind of thinking - record at whatever you can THEN dither/compreess to what you'll 'print' at. When I think of doing graphic work, I use the same principle - the quality is always better if I work and edit in 16million colors before translating even if I'm destined to a 256 color gif.

Sounds like the iRiver is a very smart buy for mobile recording. I'm going to have to look into it. I'm not expecting 'studio' quality while on the road and I'll bet 320kpbs is just fine.

What I haven't gotten out of the specs is this though - on the iRiver, what kind of mics would it take? Clearly the unit doesn't supply phantom power but is there a mic pre-amp? Take me out of the world of large condensor mics and pre-amps and I get lost pretty fast... For example, could I take my Shure SM58 or Sennheiser 421 (dynamic mics) and plug them right in by finding an XLR to mini-plug converter or does it require special mics?

[F7sound]

Jeff,

The internal mic on the iRiver is actually decent. It records in mono and the highest setting is 44.1k/160kbps. You've got to use the automatic gain control setting because the thing distorts easily without it (against my best judgement to use AGC, but the machine proved me wrong).

I have a set of microphones that I use w/my minidisc for remote/stealth recording. These look like headphones and you can wear them as such, but they have microphones in them. You can get a set from soundprofessionals.com for around $125. The run on 3 watch batteries or plug-in power. I just tried them with the iRiver and they are great! Now, no machine noise from my recorder and it's stealthy as ****! Picture of the mics w/minidisc at:

http://www.F7sound.com/field-recording.htm

The iRiver can run external microphones (in Line In recording mode, but there's an "external mic" option from within that mode) through it's Line In jack 1/8" stereo. You can set up stereo 44.1/320kbps. Sound quality is as good or slightly better than minidisc. No external preamp was needed for this to work. I'm pretty psyched.

Now, I'm not about to throw away my Pro Tools setup and professional preamps/microphones. But the way I approach podcasting is that spontaneous events trigger my show ideas, and having a tiny, ultra portable recording system with me at all times means I have more opportunities.

I highly recommend Soundprofessionals.com for picking up decent-quality minidisc and now iRiver compatable mics (and preamps if you desire). They have interesting options, and shipping was quick (although I purchased from them about 3 years ago, I doubt their business has changed much).

As far as plugging your Shure, Sennheiser, or other dynamic (or any pro-level mics) into your iRiver, I'd suggest getting a decent portable preamp that has a 1/8" output. That will get you the best quality from your mics, and you can record to the iRiver via Line In (with extenal mic option OFF).

I picked up my iRiver iFP 899 (1GB) from Best Buy for $199, BTW.


Good luck,

Michael Oster
F7 Sound and Vision
http://www.F7sound.com
my podcasts - http://www.F7sound.com/podcasts.htm

[jeffoest]

Michael,

Very nifty blog and website! Thanks for sharing. I haven't had a chance to listen to your podcasts (I'm at work) but have listened to some of the samples using your binaural headphones with the iRiver. I think they sound quite good!

How does your voice sound when using those? Would you use them in a mobile podcast where, say, you conduct a 'man in the street' type of interview? Or would you select a more conventional (but portable) mic?

OH - FYI - just to let you know, my complete recording setup includes a Marshall MXLV69 tube mic and a Studio Projects C1 into Grace 101 / RNP preamps into a hard-disk recorder/mixer by Akai (the DPS16) - sends to RNC compresser and TC Electronics M-One XL for reverb - after which I mix and import into my computer (using SPDIF 24bit digital transfer and the M-Audio USB) for post-production in Adobe Audition and the Ozone mastering Plug-In . Not quite at Pro-Tools quality but not too far.

So you can see the 'mobility' of soemthing like the iRiver could be a nice compliment just as you have found with yours. In the back of my mind I'm thinking though "geezz, just what I need - ANOTHER MP3 player"!

[F7sound]

Jeff,

I used those stealth mics with minidisc and haven't published "stealth" recordings from those mics/iRiver yet.

My latest podcast was almost all iRiver, but I made the mistake of recording with the Automatic Gain Control off, so there's distortion. My bad. Also, that was recorded mono with the internal microphone.

I'll make some recordings with the stealth setup and iRiver and post them pretty soon (maybe late tonight). I'd probably just wear my microphones (headphones) around my neck the whole time. If I were to do an interview, the interviewee would probably be just a few feet from me, so I don't think that would be a big deal. My microphone position (around my neck) would be similar to me wearing a lapel mic, I'd guess.

I've got a portable Grace Design preamp (the Lunatec V2) which I use for really high end recording. Grace makes great stuff. I'm on the road now, and all I have is a laptop Pro Tools/Mbox setup. I've been doing my (studio) VO with a Shure SM58 right into the Mbox. Pretty decent.

Once I've got my podcasts edited and post-produced in Pro Tools, I render as a 24 bit stereo file. I then import that file into iTunes and convert to mp3 80kbps mono. If I'm doing Soundseeing, I'll render as a 160kbps stereo mp3 and just make a shorter show.

I know the feeling of "another mp3 player" and actually the iRiver can easily replace my minidisc recorder. I could probably eBay the minidisc cuz I really don't have a reason to keep it now.

Also, the iRiver (1GB) model records over 7 hours of STEREO 320kbps mp3 audio. The software that comes with it works great with my PowerBook (using OS 10.3.x). File transfers are through USB and are very quick compared to realtime transfers from minidisc.

My guess is that the folks at iRiver are going to benefit quite well from the popularity of podcasting.

:-)

Michael Oster
F7 Sound and Vision
http://www.F7sound.com
my podcasts - http://www.F7sound.com/podcasts.htm
my blog - http://michaeloster.blogspot.com

[Big Mike]

OOH....I wanna play!!

Extra Super Action Show (http://www.extrasuperactionshow.com/) Setup:
Guzintas;
M-box, ART TubeMPStudio, Line6 75w SpiderII, AKG C-3000, M-Audio Pulsar, Korg PX4B, M-Audio BX8.
It's all recorded first thing in the morning on ProTools, fully edited, now in stereo, and all that juiciness. This place doubles as a music recording studio, so there's lots of toys.

This is what I look like when I'm mad:

:evil:

[Dan Ashley]

Michael,

Thanks for the tip about the Sound Professionals. I'm a newbie and I found their website confusing. If I were to get the iRiver, and wanted to buy an external microphone for recording a speech, which ones do you think would be a smart choice if my requirements were:

* Small,
* Preferably clip-on. Headset won't do for this person.
* No AC power available, if the mic needs electricity it needs to come from little batteries
* Speech is less than 1 hour long.

Thanks!

- Dan

[F7sound]

Dan,

You should contact them (Sound Professionals) directly and discuss your needs with them. They have plenty of options, and they may know about the iRiver, and that, specifically, it doesn't have 'plug-in power' which other portable recorders have and some mics depend on.

I use a set of those stealth microphones that are inside headphones. Those run on batteries (small watch batteries about the size of nickels). They also make other small mics which should work. You'll need a microphone with a 1/8" stereo jack. No XLRs.

Hope this helps a little bit.


Michael Oster
F7 Sound and Vision
http://www.F7sound.com
my podcasts - http://www.F7sound.com/podcasts.htm
my blog - http://michaeloster.blogspot.com

[F7sound]

I just wanted to update my previous post. I checked out SoundProfessionals and found this:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/ISI-HMAPRE-1

which is a headphone mounted stereo mic pair WITH preamp included - and a level control knob. You can go LINE IN to an iRiver or MD or other mp3 recorder. These things are kind of expensive, but look very promising for use with the iRiver.


Michael Oster
F7 Sound and Vision
http://www.F7sound.com
my podcasts - http://www.F7sound.com/podcasts.htm
my blog - http://michaeloster.blogspot.com

[Dan Ashley]

Thanks very much!

- Dan