A open letter to Dawn and Drew (and the Ferf)

[Ian]

An alleged Dawn and Drew listener said this (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9393.msg123946#msg123946):
I'm going to use my 3 email addresses to vote D&D up, and you down. Hopefully all the DND fans do the same.

It is never a simple task to remove the king from atop the hill. I did not expect this to be easy. For some reason I had expected people to keep this fight clean.

Call off your dogs, Dawn and Drew. When your time comes to be number two, please understand it was nothing personal.

In fact, The Ferf, could you please clarify how the top ten is calculated? It would be nice to know in order to form strategy. Here are some specific questions:

1. I noticed the vote totals have disappeared. Why?
2. It seems that star rating weighs heavier than vote total, is this true?
3. If a show has 1500 votes and 4 stars and another show has 750 votes and 5 stars, how many votes would the 5 star show need to surpass the 4 star show?
4. Since vote total does seem to be a very important factor, isn't it true that even one star votes HELP a show to some extent?

Best Regards and Happy Voting!
Ian

[drew]

mr. FTL
i have not unleashed any dogs. I wouldn't presume to have that kind of control over our listeners, nor would i ever call our listeners dogs.

your incessant begging for votes really shows what you're all about. votes, not a good show. we don't mention podcastalley.com or voting anymore and haven't in months.

this is from one of your posts:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9393.0
If you've listened to their show and don't like it, go ahead and vote them one star. If you like it, maybe you could just leave them a nice comment instead of voting for them.

for you to try to make it sound like we have suddenly done “something” is ridiculous.

All anyone needs to do is visit your vote cheerleading thread to see what has been going on. Nice the way you guys came up with the vote one star strategy. I also like the guy reporting his tenth vote for the day.

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9077.45
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9077.60

Funny how none of this bothered you, but now that a listener of ours found it, and commented in kind, you feel the need to drag us into it.

We don’t have time for this, we focus on the show we produce, I’ll leave the voting to you.

last note: #1 at podcastalley.com is not #1 in the world. get real.

[Ian]

mr. FTL
i have not unleashed any dogs. I wouldn't presume to have that kind of control over our listeners.

I didn't suggest you did. I just suggested you call them off. If you don't really care about votes, then don't bother. I don't mind your listeners one star votes, if it is indeed true that they help more than they hurt. If I discover that they hurt more than they help, my tune will change.

your incessant begging for votes really shows what you're all about. votes, not a good show. we don't mention podcastalley.com or voting anymore and haven't in months.

"Begging"? I call it encouraging. My listeners come to vote for FTL because they are dedicated, and because they like the show. Unlike you, FTL has only been podcasting since early January. So your position at #1 has allowed you to rest on your laurels. It's okay to be jealous because we've shot up the charts in less than two months. That's due to hard work and consistent effort.

I'm quite happy to discover that you don't care about votes. That means you won't take it too hard when we displace you.

this is from one of your posts:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9393.0
If you've listened to their show and don't like it, go ahead and vote them one star. If you like it, maybe you could just leave them a nice comment instead of voting for them.

for you to try to make it sound like we have suddenly done “something” is ridiculous.

I never made anything sound like you did "something". In fact, I went so far as to say an "alleged Dawn and Drew listener". I didn't even say for sure that the individual in question is a listener of yours, though it seems that way.

All anyone needs to do is visit your vote cheerleading thread to see what has been going on. Nice the way you guys came up with the vote one star strategy. I also like the guy reporting his tenth vote for the day.

Please note, I simply encouraged listeners who listened and don't like your show to vote one star. I did not instruct them to vote more than once for you, because I believe that will help and not harm you. Get it straight. There's nothing dirty about what I've done.

Funny how none of this bothered you, but now that a listener of ours found it, and commented in kind, you feel the need to drag us into it.

I thought you should know what one of your alleged listeners were up to. I wanted to let you know we've been playing fair so far, and see how you responded. I'm still analyzing the next step.

We don’t have time for this, we focus on the show we produce, I’ll leave the voting to you.

Again, much thanks for not caring about the voting. Sorry to bother you. It will be an honor to switch places with you.

Ian

[drew]

we have awesome listeners, and if they want to go and vote they will. you're digging a mighty big hole for yourself in this podcasting community.

http://www.evilgeniuschronicles.org/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/technology/computers/ipod-platform/050228_02.writeback
http://www.rds.com/blogs/doug/index.php/archives/2005/03/01/podcast-alley-self-destructing/
http://mwgblog.com/archives/2005/02/28/is-this-what-it-has-come-to/

[tocard]

I also like the guy reporting his tenth vote for the day.

Actually he said
Just voted for the 10th time or so, today....way keep at it guys !

You're QUITE allowed to vote once a day every day... and obviously this is a dedicated listener... as he has voted 10 times... If your listeners voted for you once a day every day you'd have a dedicated fan base as well.

Interesting you assumed he made his 10 votes in one day though.
(he may have - I don't know him, but from that statement I wouldn't have made the same assumption you did)

last note: #1 at podcastalley.com is not #1 in the world. get real.

I wish there was a way to see the stats for all the top shows # of downloads from their site.. and not just from an individual referrer... (such as podcastalley) I wonder who would be #1 in the world then?

For now, pretty much the only podcast rating site is PodcastAlley.
As DnD ONLY distributes thier show via podcast - Without the celebrity of being rated #1 at podcast alley... The Dawn and Drew will ONLY be left with the quality of their radio show... and not just be rated and linked to by other websites, and interviewed by news media, just becuase they are #1 on (pretty much) the only podcast rating site... I guess it's good you guys (Dawn and Drew) are so focused on the quality of your show, and don't care about votes.

Your listeners should be glad that you are so dedicated to them and return the favor, as I know I am dedicated to FTL becuase Ian is equally invested in his show. (actually probably a little more invested in both time and money, as he is doing this FULL TIME in lieu of a job)

I just hope Dawn and Drew fans will enjoy the real competition, becuase, yes, FTL is going to jump past DnD on the charts... but.. as I have been paying attention... many other shows are not far behind... and climbing the charts very fast as well... That 500 vote gap is closing quickly.

Keep focusing on you show and hopefully you will rethink your decision to not rally your fans for votes... Part of marketing a good radio show is bringing in new listeners, and being in the top 10 chart helps with that.

oh, and there's nothing wrong with asking for 5 star votes. there's definitely something wrong with being OK with YOUR fans repeatedly voting one star for someone else's show just to get ratings. (Which the FTL crew and even several listeners have told other fans of us NOT to do- as evidenced by the links to the threads posted by Drew)

[camilian]

****ing Christ!

Instead of bitching, why not come up with a way to fix the problem? I know for a fact that Chris has tried to make voting as fair as possible. If you have a better way, why not email him and let him know?

[Ian]

I don't see a problem. I think the system is fine how it is. The show with the most dedicated listeners, wins!

Those who are complaining are just angry because they aren't on top, and they don't like how fast we have risen in the ranks.

While it's obvious that FTL will soon eclipse DND, I'm not foolish enough to think we'll stay in 1st place. We'll do our best to stay there, but it is likely that some new podcasting phenom will skyrocket up the charts and displace us.

I accept that possibility, and will not bitch and moan about the "system".
Ian

[camilian]

Part of marketing a good radio show is bringing in new listeners, and being in the top 10 chart helps with that.

I am curious, do you really gain a BUNCH of listeners from being in the top ten? What kind of numbers do you get?

Three of the top ten have linked to me at some time and I was in the top 50 for a long time, and although I received some hits, it is very few compared to the amount I receive from the community outside of podcasting.

It makes more sense to me to spend my time getting listed on "weird" link sites then worry about my placement. But that could be due to the nature of my program.

[Ian]

I am curious, do you really gain a BUNCH of listeners from being in the top ten? What kind of numbers do you get?

There's no way to tell how many listeners we get due to being on the top 10, but I can say without a doubt that we got listeners from our appearance in the USA Today reprint of the top ten list. That was without a doubt the best press that my show has ever received.

DND were featured in the article. CNN recently featured them. We stand to benefit quite a bit from that sort of attention, considering we're actually a radio show. So, that's why I'm very motivated to get there. My listeners want Free Talk Live to expand. If it weren't for them, we'd certainly not be where we are today.

It makes more sense to me to spend my time getting listed on "weird" link sites then worry about my placement. But that could be due to the nature of my program.

I think you're right about that. The nature of my program demands we be on top. First we'll do it in podcasting, and then the radio industy at large. Look out, Michael Savage, you racist scum!

Ian

[Ian]

we have awesome listeners, and if they want to go and vote they will. you're digging a mighty big hole for yourself in this podcasting community.

http://www.evilgeniuschronicles.org/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/technology/computers/ipod-platform/050228_02.writeback
http://www.rds.com/blogs/doug/index.php/archives/2005/03/01/podcast-alley-self-destructing/
http://mwgblog.com/archives/2005/02/28/is-this-what-it-has-come-to/

Thanks for the links. I have attempted to correct the blatant misstatements contained in them. All of their indignation amounts to a hill of beans. We've played fair despite what the authors of those threads say, and we'll reach 1st place fair and square.

The louder they complain, the more attention, and more listeners we get.

Please alert me to any new publicity!
Ian

[camilian]

I accept that possibility, and will not bitch and moan about the "system".


Sorry to assume that was what you are doing. But when aired in a "open letter" it sounded a little like you where putting blame on the system and D&D when your beef should be with your listeners not being smart enough to set up a spoofing script :).

[Ian]

I don't even know what a spoofing script is.. but it sounds like an underhanded tactic.

The point of this thread was to address in poublic a situation I discovered. (An alleged DND listener plotting sabotage against my show.)

The other point was to get my questions about the mechanics of the top ten list answered. I'm sure the Ferf will respond when he gets a moment...

Thanks for your concerns,
Ian

[theFerf]

1. I noticed the vote totals have disappeared. Why?
2. It seems that star rating weighs heavier than vote total, is this true?
3. If a show has 1500 votes and 4 stars and another show has 750 votes and 5 stars, how many votes would the 5 star show need to surpass the 4 star show?
4. Since vote total does seem to be a very important factor, isn't it true that even one star votes HELP a show to some extent?
Ian

1. we are doing some testing of some new features, it was turned off by accident
2. overall rating does weigh heavier than total votes
3. you are asking me to do too much math, and im not too good at math :)
4. short term, it does help by increasing vote count. but long term, obviously it is not good becasue it negates the shows quality of time (based of a 5 star rating system) even though hundreds of votes would be...more votes...obviously people want real (and hopefully high) ratings.

I am going to be implementing a new vote calculating script soon based off the Bayesian estimate method used by the IMDB (internet movie database) and many other sites. It takes into accout your votes and rating and compares that data against the entire directory and the average ratings.

Should be avilalble soon. will keep you posted.

Till then, play nice.

[monn0016]

What about simplifying the voting system so that one could only vote "yes" for a show. No point values...just "yes." Everytime a show got a "yes," they'd get 1 point. Whoever has the most points is the highest-ranked show.

Why not?

[Cookiepuss]

Perhaps you should switch to the Electoral system. It seesm to have worked wonders twice for George W'ya after all. ;)

Then you could have the Dawn and Drew states and the FTL states and so on. Or perhaps a hostile take over of the competition? Sway those big ad $$ away from their show. Get the share holders in an uproar. oh . . .wait. . .I think both of those are lacking I'd imagine.

Maybe cause a rift between Dawn and Drew?

Scene I, Act 1
A rabid FTL fan oddly similar in appearence to their avatar on podcastalley.com awaits Drew at his local grocery store. Waiting to throw womens perfume on Drew while he is leaving the store. With the fiendish plan of when Drew comes home, smelling like "another woman". Dawn will be furious and leave him for good. Bringing an abrupt end to the short lived Dawn and Drew Show at the pinnacle of its success. Leaving FTL free to assume the #1 spot. With the rabid FTL fan waiting in the shadows to be called to action again.

It'll be downhill from there. . .like an E! True Hollywood Story.

(Just to clarify this is all in jest. Don't go getting your keyboards in a knot over it please. I just happened to be bored at the momment and naturally long winded. In fact I like both shows EQUALLY!) :lol:

[Funtime Ben]

Unfortunately, I feel that the votes at podcast alley have become very biased... mainly to the whims of online message-boards with many users urging others to vote as much as possible for their shows.

I found myself urging on my listeners to visit podcastalley to vote for me... which was beginning to feel cheap, so I've stopped... Unfortunately, podcast alley is beginning to suffer from it's voting feature and the voting feature IS being misused.

Unfortunately the only service I am using is iPodderX's directory for finding new podcasts or trusting their placement as it is based solely on subscriber counts.

Inside Mac Radio
Coverville
The Wizards of Technology
Evil Genius Chronicles Bittorrent Feed
The Laporte Report Audio Edition
Rocketboom
WGBH Morning Stories
Reel Reviews | MWGblog
RasterWeb! Audio
KOMO News
The Chris Pirillo Show

I really like that the vote counter has stopped showing the total number of votes. It makes the ability of people trying to manipulate the system difficult to asses their position. Please keep it off!

I think Podcast Alley is a fantastic service and a great resource, but the way it's going - PodCastAlley's top ten will soon be a showing of who can hack the system better... and the podcasts who really deserve recognition because of their content will be pushed aside... like Dawn and Drew!

Now we can't have that!

[Ian]

Anyone who listens to the first segment of last night's Free Talk Live (http://freetalklive.com/files/FTL030105A.mp3) will discover that there are crossover listeners between DND and FTL.

Yep, that's right. It's possible for people to like both shows. In fact, there's more than enough time in the day for them to listen to both.

No one at FTL has a vendetta against DND personally. We may not appreciate their style of show, but we never initiated any attacks. The only reason DND matter to FTL, is because they are #1.

It doesn't really matter to me if all of you like Free Talk Live, just as long as some of you do!

Regards,
Ian

[Berniquen]

I love Dawn and Drew, and was curious to see FTL on the top ten today. I had heard mention of the voting "wars" and decided to go to the message board to investigate. I'm utterly disappointed by the actions of FTL listeners, I'm more disappointed by the ranting of it's creator.

Will I give the show a listen? I might, but honestly, this being my first impression, it will likely need to be a **** good show for me to subscribe past one show.

Podcasting is about finding fun new entertainment, not petty wars. Dawn and Drew are what they are, I enjoy them, many do, and there is no reason to attack them.

If the FTL show wants to be focused on votes, then that's fine, but I don't plan on voting for them in the future... if I like their or show or not. I listen for because it's fun, I hope they record because they find it enjoyable.

[Ian]

I love Dawn and Drew, and was curious to see FTL on the top ten today. I had heard mention of the voting "wars" and decided to go to the message board to investigate. I'm utterly disappointed by the actions of FTL listeners, I'm more disappointed by the ranting of it's creator.

My listeners were just voting for FTL, that's all they were ever asked to do.

Podcasting is about finding fun new entertainment, not petty wars. Dawn and Drew are what they are, I enjoy them, many do, and there is no reason to attack them.

Agreed. We never attacked them. It was a DND listener who misinterpreted a suggestion I made that threatened to attack FTL.

If the FTL show wants to be focused on votes, then that's fine, but I don't plan on voting for them in the future... if I like their or show or not. I listen for because it's fun, I hope they record because they find it enjoyable.

I love radio. I love my show. We're focused on getting new affiliates for my show, and voting is a part of that, as voting gets press, and press helps recruit new affiliates.

Please review what I've said, because we never attacked anybody. In fact, when a listener asked if he should attack the other shows on the top ten, I specifically said not to.

Of course, when what I said got into the hands of some of the Podcast "purists", it was blown out of proportion, and misrepresented.

The world will not end if you don't listen, nor will my show. Give us a shot, you might realize we're not the evil villans some of these people are trying to paint us as.

Regards,
Ian

[sweek]

You know Ian, that little suggestion you made was pretty ****ing rude, and the whole i image I've been getting from you by reading these forums only seems to make you worse.

Keep doing this if you really want publicity and ****, but definitely stop it if you want to keep any friends in podcasting land.

[Ian]

You know Ian, that little suggestion you made was pretty ****ing rude
Keep doing this if you really want publicity and ****, but definitely stop it if you want to keep any friends in podcasting land.
I find your attacks and threats to be rude. Why would I want you as a friend?

Oh, and for the record, my friends are in real life. Everyone else is an associate.

I don't give a rat's *** what vitriolic people like you think about Free Talk Live. I only care about my listeners. They listen and they don't care what you think either!

:P

[theFerf]

this article has been locked by the admin. podcasting is a community built on more than name calling and egos. please provide constructive criticism and not insults.

the point of the podcast alley site is to attract new users to your podcast and allow them a place to tell others about what great work you are doing. the point is NOT for podcasters to attack eachother. Please Stop.